| |  Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision #241182
12/13/11 02:59 PM 12/13/11 02:59 PM |
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ... cyberspeed  OP
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OP
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Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ... | Well everyone has been waiting for it, I was hoping everything would calm down by the time I got it posted but the rhetoric just keeps escalating. Keep in mind that there was no intent on causing damage and it was a racing incident that happened quickly in close quarters. Of course blame can be assigned but there was no intent on causing damage or trying to take out the other boat. Saturday night we had a closed session viewing of the raw footage with both teams at Steve Lohmayer's party. The responsible person admitted mistake, apologized and they all shook hands. I really hope we can keep the discussion civil and focus on the lessons to be learned. You can view the video on: www.SailSeries.com | | | Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision
[Re: cyberspeed]
#241192
12/13/11 03:44 PM 12/13/11 03:44 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD | I think you are missing the point...
You undermine the game of sailboat racing when you half butt the final result. Somebody should be DSQ'd or RAF'd... DNF is not correct.
I am sorry, I take responsibility and I am liable is outstanding... But, you still have to complete the process of the game.... it's what you agreed to when you entered the race.
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#241193
12/13/11 03:46 PM 12/13/11 03:46 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina Jake
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina | Karl needs that spin pole Good lord...you're on a roll!
Jake Kohl
| | | Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision
[Re: Jake]
#241195
12/13/11 03:50 PM 12/13/11 03:50 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C. | Karl needs that spin pole Good lord...you're on a roll! No doubt. The onboard from his pole cam showed some scary stuff , on the pole and on the water.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
| | | Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision
[Re: cyberspeed]
#241201
12/13/11 04:14 PM 12/13/11 04:14 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD | Sorry, Comments are not directed at you per se...
The general attitude that F up's get handled by some justice on the beach is just complete BS!
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#241203
12/13/11 04:23 PM 12/13/11 04:23 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C. | I think you are missing the point...
You undermine the game of sailboat racing when you half butt the final result. Somebody should be DSQ'd or RAF'd... DNF is not correct.
I am sorry, I take responsibility and I am liable is outstanding... But, you still have to complete the process of the game.... it's what you agreed to when you entered the race. I just spoke with Riccardi and it sounds as if Skip doesn't see this as his fault. Looks to me like it's about as straight forward as you can get. The ARC 22 (Skip) had no rights and bore away into the N-20 (Todd) which was to leeward of him. Is there any possible way this isn't the supercat's fault? p.s. And by the way Rick, awesome work on the throttles. Evasive maneuvering at it's best. Maybe you've found the subject of your next seminar/book.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
| | | Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#241208
12/13/11 04:48 PM 12/13/11 04:48 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD | I thought I read that "responsibility" had been agreed on.
So... Now what???... No chance to get witness's, cross examine anyone, and have a jury decide on the facts and rule on the RRS.
Without a PC hearing... Skip can legally say that he is NOT avoiding "responsibility" (What he agreed to when he entered the event under the RRS) because the rules violations were not adjudicated.
Classic example of what happens when you make up your own rules...
What purpose is served by the insurance companies screwing both owners and saying pay your own deductibles... we can't sort it out.
AND the racing community knows that all of that word salad that they sign off on ... is just Bull$hit. This is just the wild wild west... "you pays your money... takes your chances."
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#241210
12/13/11 04:51 PM 12/13/11 04:51 PM |
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ... cyberspeed OP
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OP
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Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ... | I just spoke with Riccardi and it sounds as if Skip doesn't see this as his fault.
Looks to me like it's about as straight forward as you can get. I thought Skip was better than that. After the discussion they had, I can't believe he would try to renig. | | | Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision
[Re: cyberspeed]
#241211
12/13/11 05:00 PM 12/13/11 05:00 PM |
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 172
Anacortes Sloansailing
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member
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Anacortes | A boat that causes major damage MUST retire from racing, its in the RRS. Its plain and simple and to continue racing is violating the RRS, period.
One thing that may have been mentioned but I haven't seen it is insurance. If there is a claim for repairs many times insurance companies require a written report of the incident with fault assigned to one party or the other. Protests serve this purpose and the resultant decision of the protest committee to assign fault makes the decision for the insurance company. Without a protest hearing and protest form, the insurance company can't assign fault, and can't fulfill a claim.
Anacortes Rigging.com
Rigging and Yacht Services
| | | Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision
[Re: cyberspeed]
#241215
12/13/11 05:14 PM 12/13/11 05:14 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO, Mike Hill
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Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO, | Skip is clearly at fault after carefully reviewing the video. He first cuts Karl off and heads up hard and bounces off of Karl. He then tries to duck hard and get behind Todd unsuccessfully. I thought at first he could argue that Karl pushed him down. That just isn't the case. You can see after he hits Karl he pulls hard on his rudders and accelerates right into Todd. Had he just bounced off Karl and stayed high he would have not hit Todd but would have probably run over the starting mark. Better to hit a starting mark than to hit a boat.
I've been there. I don't fault Skip for continuing. Doubt he knew the extent of the damage and he knew a committee boat was right there to help or tow if needed. Obviously he should have dsq'd himself after he saw the damage. I also understand making a mistake. I don't understand him not taking responsibility. Windward / Leeward. It's not much more basic than that. Todd had no chance to avoid the situation.
Oh yeah, And shame on Karl for trying to jump in there. Nice try but I'd have cut Karl off too. Karl thought better of it and got out of it nice and clean. Karl you barging SOB. :))
Mike Hill
N20 #1005
| | | Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision
[Re: Mike Hill]
#241218
12/13/11 05:23 PM 12/13/11 05:23 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C. | Skip is clearly at fault after carefully reviewing the video. He first cuts Karl off and heads up hard and bounces off of Karl. He then tries to duck hard and get behind Todd unsuccessfully. I thought at first he could argue that Karl pushed him down. That just isn't the case. You can see after he hits Karl he pulls hard on his rudders and accelerates right into Todd. Had he just bounced off Karl and stayed high he would have not hit Todd but would have probably run over the starting mark. Better to hit a starting mark than to hit a boat.
I've been there. I don't fault Skip for continuing. Doubt he knew the extent of the damage and he knew a committee boat was right there to help or tow if needed. Obviously he should have dsq'd himself after he saw the damage. I also understand making a mistake. I don't understand him not taking responsibility. Windward / Leeward. It's not much more basic than that. Todd had no chance to avoid the situation.
Oh yeah, And shame on Karl for trying to jump in there. Nice try but I'd have cut Karl off too. Karl thought better of it and got out of it nice and clean. Karl you barging SOB. :))
Skip goes toward the bow to un-skewer his pole from the N-20's hull. I think he knew the extent of the damage.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
| | | Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision
[Re: mbounds]
#241221
12/13/11 05:29 PM 12/13/11 05:29 PM |
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus... catman
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus... | Facts Found:
1) Wind was approximately 10-12 kts, light chop.
2) ARC-22 and Nacra 20 were approaching the starting line on starboard tack.
3) ARC-22 established an overlap from astern and to weather of Nacra 20.
4) Approximately 2 seconds after the start, ARC-22 bore away, striking Nacra 20 with her fixed spinnaker pole just aft of Nacra 20's rear cross beam. The spinnaker pole pierced the hull and the boats were locked together for approximately 30 seconds.
5) ARC-20 sailed over the starting pin while the boats were locked together.
5) Nacra 20 sustained significant damage - a hull tear approximately 3 feet long - that forced her to immediately retire.
6) After the boats separated, ARC-22 continued in the race.
Conclusions:
ARC-22 broke rule 11 (windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat)
ARC-22 broke rule 14 (avoid a collision)
ARC-22 did not start properly and broke rule 28.1 (string rule) by sailing over the starting pin.
Decision:
ARC-22 is DSQ. Nacra 20 is entitled to redress under 62.1(b) +1!
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