I know that there are limitations when viewing photos and video, but at 1:25, I can HEAR the boats hit... It's just like calling close calls at first base, your eyes can be secondary to your ears.

Mark, I'm with you (and have said it numerous times); the hearing is the only place that all of the testimony comes out.

In fact, the video isn't long enough to establish how Wave and Adrenaline became overlapped, which is critical to know whether Adrenaline was required to return to proper course after the starting signal (of course, this is assuming that Adrenaline wasn't on proper course, which is a whole different discussion).

Adrenaline would only be bound by RRS 17 if she established the overlap from clear astern, and within two of her hull lengths to leeward of Wave. Even so, 2 seconds would not have been enough time to avoid Wave's action.

Mike

Not trying to be right or argue (and i have no skin in this game).. but i disagree.. That is the sound of the camera slapping / moving around with heavy helming. I have the same camera, and have heard the same distinct sound (fom 1:25) on/in my spin pole movies without hitting anything.

It's very curious to read the various interpretation of these 2 videos. My take is that the top boat(black graphics) came roaring in from behind and way too high. He got luffed up by the 22 and avoided. i didn't see contact. The top boat did the right thing and went above the start buoy. The 22 was able to bear off in a very short distance and get on the correct side of the buoy showing excellent maneuverability. He would have been fine if it were not for his spi pole. A small error with disastrous results. He was also lined up too high, which is a pretty big mistake considering the other end of the line was favored. Also i thought the captain of the 22 should have dumped his traveler while the 2 boats were locked together.

MN3, I can definitely buy that. Especially since the video isn't conclusive (can't see the hulls touch, just a lot of shaking at the point it looks like they may have touched). In a hearing, if both parties said there was no contact, I doubt this video would overrule that.

Mike

Stray Cats needs to be given an opportunity to keep clear. Wave came in too fast and turned upwind to quickly for Stray Cats to respond "in a seamanlike manner" (I think that the wording).

Wave can't claim Stray Cats contributed to contact with the leeward boat because Wave steered down there all by himself when he should have rounded up with Stray Cats and got out of there.

Either way, neither of the upwind boats had any rights and were lucky the start boat wasn't anchored and 30 foot long - in fact methinks they wouldn't have tried it on if that was the case....http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/icons/default/smirk.gif

I think you’re looking for this:

RRS 16.1: When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear.

Room: The space a boat needs in the existing conditions while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.

Keep Clear: One boat keeps clear of another if the other can sail her course with no need to take avoiding action and, when the boats are overlapped on the same tack, if the leeward boat can change course in both directions without immediately making contact with the windward boat.

Obviously, since there apparently was no contact, Stray Cats (barely) kept clear of Wave (and vice-versa).

The more times I watch that video, the more things I see. Leading into the incident, Wave was changing course so much, it's hard to make a case that anyone could have predicted her next move...

Going back to the barging question, in the absence of Adrenaline, this would have been a good example of a boat (Stray Cats) legally taking a spot that was open (not barging). Wave was too far from the mark to defend. However, in the actual incident, if Stray Cats had pushed it, she would have barged on Adrenaline (and we all know that Todd was having none of that on Saturday!).


I’ve been having that thought for the past few days as well, although you’d be surprised what some people will try…

Mike

I would argue that that's not necessarily the case. There doesn't need to be contact in order to establish that one boat didn't keep clear. In fact, by making contact, either or both boats could be penalized under Rule 14.

In any case, after looking at the video several times, my opinion is that there are really two separate incidents that occur. The first being when Stray Cats enters the starting area from astern and above both Adrenaline and Wave with essentially no right of way under Rule 11. Wave's response to this is to luff. Whether the speed of Wave's luff violates Rule 16.1, or if Stray Cats Violated Rule 11 is open to interpretation. But this would be the topic for a separate protest.

After Stray Cats is luffed, she peels away and tacks off, leaving ample room for Wave to manuver to windward. However, Wave bears off, presumably in an attempt to get below the starting pin. In doing so, she accelerates and overlaps Adrenaline to windward from clear astern. Shortly after Wave initiates her bear away, Adrenaline turns upwind, closing the door on the start pin. Adrenaline is within her rights to do this as long as she doesn't violate Rule 161 since Wave's overlap was established from clear astern and Adrenaline may luff head-to-wind if she pleases. Wave is also not afforded any right of way under Rule 18, therefor, Wave's only response can be to luff up. She doesn't do this, and thus fouls Adrenaline by making contact and violating Rules 11 & 14.

Moral of the story, both Wave and Stray Cats tried to squeeze into a spot they shouldn't have. Stray Cats ultimately did the right thing by bailing out, Wave did the wrong thing by trying force her way in, and Adrenaline ended up paying the price.

At least, that's my take on it.

sm

I think you guys are tossing the baby out with the bathwater here by focusing on the rule and ignoring the race. Boats are allowed to defend their wind.. They CAN'T HIT the boat that is trying to pass to prove the point.

Wave is the ROW boat to Straycat.... Stray cat is trying to pass to windward. Wave is entitled to defend by coming up fast and hard to keep Straycat from trying the pass so close.. Sraycat has to INSTANTLY respond to Wave's luff and avoid her... Staycat could be made to go head to wind hard!. The limitation is that WAVE can't hit STRAYCAT in the hard luff to prove the point.

Stray cat has to pay attention to the ROW boat (Wave) and can't be asleep at the switch or purposely delay action. Wave can't tap Stray cat to prove the point... It's up to WAVE to decide if StrayCat failed to keep clear and throw the flag or not (Wave is over 20 feet). Forcing Stray cat to instantly go head to wind is not forcing them into an unseamanlike action. It would appear that Wave did not come up and hit Straycat.. or Straycat did an excellent job of keeping clear... But... only Wave knows if he wanted to come up a bit more. Straycats may know if Wave was demanding more up on Straycats part.

My point is ... the room and opportunity does not excuse the burdened boat from keeping a very sharp lookout when they put themselves in the position to be luffed and they can't be surprised at the hard luff and claim... no room and opportunity (using the rule as a weapon)

With respect to the actual collision.
Wave could say... They tried to luff head to wind to BOTH slow down and defend their position. ... Straycats prevented them from luffing head to wind and they broke off the luff to avoid hitting Straycats. Because they could not luff, they were unable to keep clear of Adrenaline. Their boat is not as maneuverable as others... They attempted to avoid the collision but the liability is Stray cats.

Without any testimony.... Who the hell knows. ... I suspect all of the sailors don't actually know exactly what happened and they were reacting based on their general understanding of the rules and their obligations. Now they are sorting through the rules after the fact and putting their reactions into their understanding and also actually reading the rule book to getting a better understanding.

One thing to realize is the line was not set to the wind and it was easy for the boats down the line to sail back up to the right mark. If someone thought a hole would open up at the right mark that was never going to happen.

To paraphrase Mark, I think everyone involved focused on the start and ingored the race.

Tactically and strategically, in any race, and especially in a long-distance race; there's no good reason to ever be at either extreme end of the line (especially the favored end), unless no one else is there. Only one boat ever "wins" the favored end. You're far better off being in the favored third, with clear air, boatspeed and room to maneuver if necessary.

Mike

I disagree. From what I see on the video, Wave had ample room to luff if necessary after Stray Cats bailed out. Wave CHOSE to continue to bear off in order to get below the pin after her luff. I don't see any reason that Wave can blame Stray Cats for causing her to contact Adrenaline. Wave should have either parked the boat and let Adrenaline sail through, or tack out and do the same thing Stray Cats did.

sm

Not if it's set on a reach...you start low, you potentially get washed out to the back of the train further up the leg. It's like when we used to race with B-marks. The fleet typically rounds A setting a high course to try and keep anyone from getting over top of them. Rarely does anyone point right for B unless they're free and clear or B is set on the perfect angle for a downwind sail.

The fleet was small...so it turned out to not be much of an issue - but I've started in a big steeplechase fleet where I started low on the line square to the bridge with a reaching breeze angle thinking I would stay free from the mayhem and I got killed with dirty air. Mix in boats that are faster and slower than and it gets ugly for the guy starting low that isn't the fastest in the fleet.

I hear what you're saying, and I know there are issues with boat size and getting washed out the back; but only one boat can have a good start at the high pin.

I maintain that it's a high-risk / low-probability-of-success move to fight for it at all costs.

And, I never said to start on the wrong end of the line. You want the favored third.

Mike

I am just making the argument.....

Here is another interesting point... without the video at the PC hearing... this is a bigger mess.

If he says.. it's a second event... then he argues that while he was the burdened boat... There was a hole and then Adrenaline came up after the horn and he did not have opportunity... ... given the long spin pole...

It has been clear that I have been silent here on this forum about the incident that occurred on the start of the first day of the Steeple Chase. Part of the reason for this is that I rarely if ever get on the forum, and had no idea that this string was being formed. When it was brought to my attention, by friends, what had transpired over the last few days on the forum, I logged on to see first-hand what had been said. I was amazed at the firestorm that had ensued concerning this incident, and also the mis-truths and misconceptions about the facts, as well as spot judgments of my character and other’s character from people that were not privy to the facts. Instead of giving a blow by blow from my perspective as the helmsman, which is quite different from the videos shot from opposite angles, I have decided to tell you what has transpired since the incident.
It has been said that I reneged on a hand shake that was to be considered an acceptance of blame for the damage to the leeward boat. First the setting of the discussion was in a home of a friend of mine that I admire and respect. The last thing I wanted to do is turn his home into a protest meeting and create an uncomfortable situation for him and the rest of his guests that were there to relax and have a drink with friends. From my perspective I thought that it was an impossible situation, as well as unfortunate, and since there was no protest committee to determine fault we were shaking hands and agreeing to disagree. When I was approached by Todd the next day I realized, then, that he still wanted me to accept fault. I told him there, in front of witnesses that I needed time to try to determine how we could get this event ruled on and if it was determined that I was at fault I would pay for the damages and accept fault. Since that conversation Todd and I have been in contact each day to discuss progress and suggest potential solutions. During this same time period I wrote up my description of what happened and sent it out to people that I know and trust that have been involved in protest hearings. It took time as I had to wait for one of the guys to get back from a cruise out of the country. Both of them saw the videos, my drawings and my write up. This morning they both concurred that I need to accept fault and responsibility for the damages to the leeward boat. I have contacted Todd and told him that I accept fault and will pay for damages.
As for the discussion on rule 41b, I had no prior knowledge of this rule and feel terribly that it could be possible that I could have participated in another infraction. Again, because I thought that I was not at fault at the time, I continued to sail on. I did see the damage above the water line of the boat and they were sailing it away under control and from my perspective I could not do anything to help them better than several boats with motors in attendance at the start. Since there is no committee to determine fault here what I am willing to do and intend to do is pose to Rick White that he swap my finish scores for the damaged boats finished scores as a way to exonerate myself from this possible infraction.
In conclusion I am very saddened by this turn of events and I thank everyone involved, especially Todd for being a stand up gentleman and allowing me the time I needed to come to an informed decision and make proper restitution. If there had been a formal means to resolve this Saturday it would have been done then and I would have accepted and respected the decision made.
Thanks to the people who know me and supported me and gave me the benefit of the doubt.
Respectfully Skip Kaub

Well done!!!

Thanks, Skip!

+1

LOL!!! I knew it but I can't help myself but engage. A boat does not have to anticipate another boat's actions. Your arguement is just short of making that statement.... the F18 only needs to react to ARC's actions which it did. If ARC allows F18 to get close before fending off, then it also has to allow F18 the opportunity to respond to its actions. Good advice is to make your defense known early if you do not wish to be rolled.

Great Stuff!!!