Hi folks

Looking for some opinions on how useful a preregistration system would be.

Big Boat regattas in my area set a Thursday deadline for regatta registration for the upcoming weekend. Registration and payment are mailed in. Beach cat Regattas have never seemed to have much compliance with such a preregistration system though.

The benefits to a club are obvious. You don't need a large staff for the registration table. You are able to plan for food, trophies and giveaways well in advance and you have a real budget to work with, not to mention making the regatta scoring painless.

Pre registration also secures a commitment from the racer since they have bought their ticket if you will.

What would racers think about a preregistration system that accepted secure credit card payment. No stamps, no postage hassels, no lines at registration. On the beach registration would cost you an additional 20 dollar penalty that would be donated to the club's favorite charity or kept by the club if they wanted.

Thanks
Mark

Hey Mark,

Yea, the budget and dollar issue is something that you really need to keep a handle on if you want to run a “good” event.

And before you say it……. We’re all adults – right?

With the (lets say) Thursday registration cut-off for a Saturday Race – do you stand the chance of losing the “not so punctual sailor”. There has to be a happy medium between to two….

Example:
1) Registration for this weekends Lighthouse race is $25 dollars – If paid by Thursday 5:00 pm
2) Registration for this weekends Lighthouse race received after 5:00 pm Thursday will be $35.00

I know it gouges the late guy – but it is an incentive to turn $$ in early, and it helps the Club determine the true amount of Sailors – And if there is a “late run” on the registration table the morning of the race – At $35 a head, the club gets a nice padding. You don’t like $35…. Make it $45!

IMO

I think there is a lot to be said for making a commitment to going racing by putting your entry fee in. I know of several people who were wishy washy about making the race this weekend and failed to show. If you are faced with a deadline (and are a cheap.. nah.. frugal sailor) you will get your [email]A@#[/email] in gear, find crew, clear your schedule and be there. Gouge! ... No... We can always give the extra cash to the Chesapeake Bay Foundation or Leukemia Society. He becomes a late humanitarian then!

From the Race manegmant point of view... you don't have left over food that you have to deal with, Keith does'nt have to spend as much time scoring the event (and miss the party), and a hundred other benefits.

Check out www.sailregattas.com !
This software was used for all of Annapolis Yacht Club's regattas this year as well as the Women's Rolex Cup. I am working with Bob to see what the possibilities are for our cat racing season next year.

PS... I think we will have a start for next year's PSA overnight race. Baltimore light, Sandy point light, Rock Hall, Dundalk, Pooles Island light, Baltimore light finish Start at 4 pm. 35 miles. Free Breakfast at the PSA club on the Magothy in the AM.

It was a great day to be on a Tornado!
Take care
Mark

Do you really want to risk turning away a few sailors to make things more convenient on the race committee? I say YES to online pre-registration because it makes it easier for everyone but I think onsite registration should continue to be available. Yes, it is more of a burden on the planning and management of the event but I think it's important to most events to have this option. Make it worthwhile! I think there's more room for the additional upcharge. Around here it's about an additional $5 or $10 for late registration but I would be willing to pay $15 if I had a last minute change that suddenly made me available or something.

It is not good customer service to limit available options. Good customer service is to have many different options available but at rates to make it worthwhile to the service provider.

My YC - www.pensacolabeach-yc.org - has been using on-line registration with some success. You don't even have to pay up front to avoid penalties - just make the commitment. As you guys point out, it helps immeasurably with food, trophies, and scoring. As Jake says, though, the option for on-site registration still needs to be available.

Hobie Fleet 32 has been using on-line registration for some time now and it has been very successful. We do not require fees to be paid up front - we just want an idea as to who is thinking of showing up. It helps more than one might think.
Our fleet even offers to host and set up on-line registrations for the fleets in Division 9 and neighboring fleets. We did it for The Kerr Lake regatta, Duck Cup, for the Carolina Beach regatta (When it last ran ) etc.
We charged a late fee for on-site registration/day of the event entry fee's for our Labor Day event and surprisingly I think only one or two people did not pre register.
I would hesitate to do away with on-site registration as some people really don't know if they can make it or not. Work, family problems etc can really dictate that outcome.

Tracie

Mark,
Isn't one of the problems of getting people to register and pay in advance that a lot of people wait to see what the weather is going to be? If there is going to be no air or light air or too much air. If it is going to be raining or if it is going to be snowing.

That was not the case back in the 1980's when people had no idea what the weather was going to be at the regatta site two or three hours away. You went and took whatever you got.

But nowadays people can get very accurate forecasts for the regatta venue, no matter where it is, and so they wait until a day or two before the event to make their decision about attending.

It's too bad, because that is one of the good things about sailing -- learning to play with the cards you're dealt. When you know some of the cards ahead of time, it's easy to fold before you even come to the table.

Hi Mary

I am afraid that you are correct about people's behavior.

However...IMO, I am a member of a club and we are not running a buisness here... we are hosting an event for the cat racing community. There is no racing if we don't pitch in to help run events and participate in the schedule we agree on.

In the good ol days .. Food was a hobie hot dog! Large numbers of racers meant that the fair weather sailors did not matter as much. Now, clubs arrange for real food and we have the same fixed costs as years ago.

IMO, the key here is being able to pay with your credit card on line. Quick, easy, secure... and the host club has a great idea of who is committed to racing and can plan accordingly. If circumstances are such that you can't make a commitment in time... you will always be able to register on the beach for whatever premium the club wants to charge. CBYRA Big boat events simply don't score you if you aren't registered because it's such a hassel for them. From their point of view... your crisis ... is not a crisis for us.

Cat sailors manage to preregister for the nationals, so a preregistration system should not be a problem.

Take Care
Mark

I've got nothing against hot dogs. I'm here to sail!

That's the correct attitude in my book!

Interesting notes on the weather thing. I believe that we should more and more push the mindset that show up and sail with what you got instead of choosing to stay away form the venue based on the forecast. Even with today's great weather, it's still often wrong or does not capture the full picture.

Case in point - this past weekend at the CRAC/WRCRA lighthouse Race. If you believed the NOAA forecast in the morning, you would have thought about whether you wanted to go distance racing in 5-10 wind. People may have stayed away based on that forecast. Why bother? It's light air, don't feel like drifting all day. If people did that, they missed out on a day of high teens to twenties, and a great romp across the Bay and back. Works the other way too - forecasted nuclear conditions may not develop.

Plan to race, show up unless the hurricane hits that day, and make your decision to sail based on what you see at the venue. At the least you get a road trip out of it...

Another note about weather.

A year or so ago a regatta organizer was wondering whether he should cancel his event because, as of two days before, the weather forecast was so incredibly awful that it was obvious they were not going to be able to sail. He did not want people to have to take the time and money to drive all the way to the regatta, when it was preordained that there would be no racing.

What do you think a regatta organizer should do in these circumstances? It was certainly not a hurricane, but predictions were for big wind and big seas and big surf and no way to sail or even get off the beach.

What should he have done? Should he have tried to postpone or cancel or move the venue or what? Since the event had been on everyone's schedule for a long time, how would you let everybody know at the last minute that it was postponed, canceled or moved? Or should he have just let it be? -- Whatever happens happens. There is no way to get in contact with everybody. I know we have been at regattas where there was not a single race -- either because of too much wind or too little wind.

And what do you do when people come to the regatta and refuse to register and pay until they know whether there is going to be an event?

And what do you do when people have already paid and the weather is prohibitive and they want their money back?

And if there is no sailboat racing, how do you entertain people for the weekend so they feel as though their trip to the venue was not in vain.

These are the kinds of questions and problems that some regatta organizers face.

Excluding major weather events like hurricanes, the organizer should still host the event. As you said, contacting everyone is about impossible and predicting the weather is still not an exact science and could change. Trying to reschedule the event at that time of the year would be just about impossible given all the other regattas going on (in our area anyway).

I don't think the organizer should offer 'money back' due to weather. That could start a landslide and leave them unable to cover known, and already incured, expenses (the food, shirts, beer, etc. have already been purchased).

Somebody refuse to register until they know they'll race? Well, it says right (insert the "here") that open registration is from 8am to 9am Saturday morning. 9am should be the deadline for them to make up their mind. Personally, I don't have any problems with rules as long as I understand them - I imagine most folks are that way.

Entertainment? Spend that saved boat fuel money on a little extra beer - we're pretty good at entertaining ourselves.

I would think that ultimately the decision on whether to hold the event at all is on the shoulders of the organizers. And they should have the freedom to cancel or postpone an event if situations develop (hurricanes, permits, plague, etc.). Perhaps a standard thing would be for them to state that, and I guess some do.

For pre-registered and pre-paid entries, I believe it is reasonable to desire/expect your money back if the organizers cancel, unless stated up front that no refunds should be expected. This does put some risk on the organizers, but that's the cost of doing business IMO. And, if you say you'll refund you'd better be prepared to do it.

If YOU choose not to participate in an event that you already paid for, I don't believe you have any reason to expect a refund. That's the monetary risk YOU assume, IMO.

This is not meant that a lawyer has to write up NORs, but I think it's reasonable that we put some of this stuff in so people know the deal up front.

Another recent case in our area - Isabel came through on the the Thursday night before the Annapolis to Oxford race was to be run. The race is run by the Naval Academy Sailing Squadron, and the registration is online and pre-paid, with the cut-off being the Thursday before the race. The big news is that beach cats got an official start for this year's race. This is one of the biggies in our area. Anyway, Isabel is on its way, and you needed to pre-regged and paid by the day the storm was to arrive. On Tuesday they cancelled the race. I had no expectation of seeing my $30, chalking it up to "that's the way it goes". Recently I received a check in the mail refunding my fee. My opinion of the organizers just went up whole bunch, even though I would've been ok if they kept it for expenses.

I would like to add, sometimes it is NOT the race committee,
but the owners of the committee boat or chase/mark boats.

I have forgotten the number of times at a long distance regatta
where the RC boat owner said it was to uncomfortable for them to
sit out on the water for four hours.

Or the committee boat did not feel like coming back the next
day, and sit in a washing machine.

Or it was to rough for the committee boat to exit the cut.

Or not enough chase boats.

Or etc.

Hi Mary, I have also seen some of those attitudes and I think it STINKS.

If you think that a sailing club is a business and is selling you a service (regatta management) then your point of view about deserving a rebate in the case of a bad outcome makes sense. A proper fleet business plan would then price the service so that they could absorb an event with low attendance, bad weather, or any other catastrophe where they had to rebate money. You also can evaluate race management and decide whether you get your money's worth. You would probably have to pay for the time of the RC personal and their equipment costs since few people volunteer for a business.

The reality is that clubs are staffed with volunteers, who price their events so that they make enough money to cover their costs of the event and the replacement of fleet equipment. Its a cooperative... not a business. In fact, many yacht clubs insist that you be a member of a participating yacht club in order to compete in their events. They depend on the sailors support to keep things going. Everyone involved in the regatta is on the same team. If a club can rebate cash in the event an event crashes... great, but in a cooperative... you are simply moving the cash from your one hand to the next. You still have to pay the bills as part of your club.

You can't split the risk up ... the racer and the club need each other and this relationship is cooperative and not business.

Pre registration with payment allows the club cooperative to do the best they can and make the sport happen. Get involved... run some part of the sport as part of your club.

Take Care
Mark

Mark,
I hope your response was directed at Keith and not at me. He said something about refunds being part of the cost of "doing business." As you said, most people who host regattas do not consider it a "business," except insofar as preparing a budget and figuring out how much they need to charge and how much sponsorship they need to get to cover their costs -- and, hopefully, make a little money for their fleet or club to apply toward future events and ongoing expenses of the organization.

This is all very complicated, and pre-paid preregistrations make it even more complicated. Here are the potential scenarios:

1) You do it the old-fashioned way and have no idea how many people are going to show up until you do registration on site. If you were expecting 20 boats in two classes and you end up with 60 boats in six classes, you are in trouble because you have to hustle at the last minute to get more stuff. If you were expecting 60 boats and got 20, you are also in trouble, because you already got all the stuff and are going to be in the hole financially -- and there is going to be way too much beer for those people to consume.

2) You take pre-registrations via your website (but unpaid)just so you have some clue as to how many people PLAN to attend, so you can better budget for trophies, T-shirts, beer, food, etc. It's still a crapshoot, but at least you have a little better handle on what kind of attendance to expect.

3) You take pre-registrations that are also pre-paid by credit card or check in the mail. Now it is more complicated, because you may have some people asking for refunds because they could not attend the regatta -- personal illness, shoulder dislocated, death in the family, lost job, house got flooded, yadayadayada.

To avoid putting the regatta organizers in the position of having to make case-by-case decisions on such cancellations and refunds, I think the cutoff for prepaid registrations should be at least a week before the regatta itself and that should also be the cutoff date for requesting refunds if you cannot attend the regatta for ANY reason.

The problem with that policy is that it will make people more hesitant to pre-pay their preregistrations.

4) And if regatta organizers have to, very close to the actual regatta date, cancel or postpone the event, they also have the problem of wondering whether to refund the money to people who did pre-pay, even though that will leave them with no income to cover all the advance expenses that have already been paid -- trophies, beer, t-shirts, etc.

a) If the event is postponed to a later weekend and people who pre-paid cannot make it to that later event, they may ask for their money back. So how can this eventuality be covered in the notice of race?

b) If the event gets totally canceled, in advance, because of a major problem, it seems logical, and only fair, that all the pre-paid registrants would have to be reimbursed, and that the club is going to have to eat their losses for what they have already paid out and hope that the beer will keep and that the trophies and T-shirts can be re-done for next year. In this kind of situation if you did not reimburse the people who pre-paid, you would never be able to get anybody to pre-pay again.

c) And then there is the problem of the regatta that is NOT canceled in advance, but because of weather conditions, no races can be run. In this case, I think everybody who registered and paid prior to closing of registration on the date of the event should not ask for or be given a refund for ANY reason.
* * * * *
I'm not saying that I am not in favor of pre-paid preregistrations. This obviously takes a burden off the race organizers. I'm just saying that it can cause lots of NEW potential problems for the race organizers, and that those need to be addressed somehow in the Notice of Race.

The big challenge is to eliminate what may be perceived as a "risk factor" for sailors who pre-pay. Like, is there a situation where I might pay in advance and lose my money, whereas all the people who were going to pay at the last minute on site are saying, "Boy, am I glad I didn't go to that one"??

Hi Mary

I have to think about the points that you raise. At first blush... It seems that all of these contingencies address the racer who's attitude is ... Hey I'm buying a service! rather a racer who is supporting the club he belongs to or a member club in the region.

Seems to me a statement to the effect that a regatta organzer will refund as much of the registration fee as possible will be sufficient. Actually, I think it is implied in the context of a club setting hosting regattas.

You summarized the issue this way.


If a sailor thinks it's too risky to preregister (for whatever reason) and he might loose a few bucks ... he simply chooses to pay the premium on site.

Well, I hope the posts weren't addressed to me either, 'cause if so you all missed my point just because I used a cliche' involving the word "business".

In planning out events you need to take a look at what costs are, and how many people will show up, and what will happen to all those plans and funds if things don't happen as per the rosey scenario. If that means you're thinking like a business, so be it. You have costs and revenue, whether your labor is volunteer, paid, or nonexistant.

There's no need to extend things to "I'm buying a service" model just because the word business was used.

But, the truth remains - as a competitor, putting money out for registration involves the the risk of losing that money if I choose not to compete for whatever reason. That's my risk for, um, lets see, new phrase, planning ahead to attend the regatta. I might get a flat tire on the way there, miss the start. I might not want to be seen in public with that big zit that just popped up on my forehead. I may not like the conditions on race day. Either way, I would have no expectation of a refund, and my risk of putting money up has come to fruition. My loss.

And, as an organizer, if I/we/us has to choose to cancel an event because of whatever reason I deemed it necessary, I would think it the correct thing to do give registration money back, unless I stated up front that I wouldn't. Maybe I said the race would be another day, and keep the money. But, I may have put a deposit on the keg, or put up to buy trophies, or bought gas for someone's boat, and I might lose those funds. That's the financial risk as an organizer to bear as a function of, um, lets see, yes, inviting people to come play on the water.

And I think we're making this tougher than it needs to be.

When our club ran last year's Lighthouse Race, the attendance was down due to weather. We took a bath financially, but that was the risk we took in setting things up the way we did. And we were happy to because we all had a damn good time. And we'd do it again, but that's because the risk of losing out financially was deemed acceptable. A couple of years ago we wouldn't have even thought of setting it up that way because in those days the club didn't have the funds to back things up if attendance was down or we needed to cancel.

So, maybe I'll go back a bit. Damn right you need to think of it as a business to some degree. A non-profit one I'm guessing, but similar principles apply - it will cost a certain amount to do a certain thing, I can reasonably count on a certain amount of revenue to cover those costs, and these are my risks and how I 'll handle/accept them. Plan to cover those things and you'll have less chance for surprises and heartache.

rant mode off...

Hi Keith and Mary,

I am not directly addressing either of you. I am addressing the points of view that you described (and I also recognize) sailors having.

Of course the planning process is run like a buisness!Keith, I agree with your point of view and all of the specifics that you do to run the event... Up to where you asign the risks of running the event.

I don't think you treat the racers as customers and give them privleges that a customer has... eg... "customer is always right". or Refunds or returns accepted with recipt.
I do agree that the NOR should state... refunds are not given for the sake of clarity.

I still think you guys are avoiding my point... Clubs are co operatives and the members have a shared responsibility.

Here is an actual situation, The C100 was devasted a few years ago by a microburst which trashed at least 5 and maybe 7 boats on the beach 12 hours before the start. All of the fixed expenses were already shot Preregistration was required and the budget adjusted for the 30 + boats. BJ the PRO, discussed refunding cash to sailors with the club leadership and we agreed to absorb the loss (can't say we thought about all of the ramifications on the beach that Saturday morning) Personally, I advised BJ to refund the cash because I felt sorry for the sailors losses)

I recognized that I was off base after the fact. I saw that some sailors saw this scene as that they were entitled to a refund, (Consumer model) .... OTHERS saw this turn of events as a club member, realized the fixed costs the club incurred and declined the refund. They recongized that if the club lost its shirt... the whole endover could crash .... (Somebodies credit card had paid for the beer, hotel rooms etc etc). We lost money that year and raised the dues next year to stay afloat.
In retrospect, we probablly should not have offered to refund the entry fee since we in fact ran the race.

Racing clubs are not just non profit entities... they are Co-operatives which also don't make a profit...I see a fundamental difference here. It's not capitalisim... its much more socialistic... (flame suit on)

I think that last years Lighthouse race is a perfect case in point of why we need a preregistration system in place. We did our best to guess turnout, and the weather set us back. Had we had a preregistration system in place with a 20 dollar premium for registering that day. I think that we probably would have had a bit more turnout, If you have already paid... you might as well go race) and covered our budget. Fortuantely we had the cash to cover the losses.

ps I spoke with NASS prior to the cancellation. The club had not bought the food, liquor or trophies for the party at the time they cancelled. Their fixed costs already spent were relatively low and they decided to absorb them as a club. They cancelled early to make sure they did not loose their shirts.

I just want to stress that membership in a racing club has responsibilites. As a member of a cooperative club, it's not just a SAM's discount card that you use when you attend regattas in your area. I think that this philosophy guides you in handeling refunds and disasters.

Another example of the Co Op nature of yacht club is the CBYRA organization. You don't have to be a member of CBYRA to race in their member clubs events... You do have to belong to a member club. Member clubs must be organized to run races for their membership and must also invite the larger community to participate in these races.

Actually, I'm not avoiding your point. I agree that clubs are co-operatives, shared responsibility, and all that. That's your pool of souls that give life to the whole thing, provide labor of love to keep it afloat, etc. They share the joy of success and the pain of failure.

I don't agree that I'm implying any customer rights on sailors. I'm not. I'm simply saying that if the club cancels an event, it's reasonable to consider refunds to pre-paid registrants, and potential financial losses need to be part of the plan for running the event. Maybe just because I believe it's the right thing to do. If no refunds are to be expected in that case, state it up front. This is simple, no customer's rights or warrantees implied, and it manages expectations.

I'll agree that you were wrong on the C-100 - the race was held, and people's not sailing fit in my other category of what can happen to your money when choose to enter an event - you might not get to sail and you might not get your entry fee back.