Are you saying they shouldn't?

+1 to both Tom and Jake.
Rules are rules.

I've been playing hockey for 15+ years, in my opinion sports such as hockey are governed by the refs. If a ref decides to not enforce a rule, full advantage is taken of it without question. If one of my team members behaved the way you suggest, they would be finding a new team each season.

Should sailing be that way? I am nt suggesting that.

not that I follow hockey, but if someone pulled a Nancy Kerrigan on someone and the ref didn't see it, that's okay?

Do they allow this behavior in the youth hockey?


edit: so the reason referees exist in the first place is that the competitors can't trust each other to play fairly?

That's an interesting comparison...the same is true of most team sports where you have active refereeing. Sailing, for the most part, is a self-policing sport so I think that carries a different expectation.

I would bet, however, that the collegiate team racing follows a similar penalty behavior as hockey and other team sports...it probably has more to do with the individual competitor aspect. I can't think of another individual competitor sport that has the need for a similar degree of rules and limitations as sailing other than automotive racing and the under-way rules there are a bit more simple.

[GOM]We could also blame it all on video games. In my youth, you had three lives in a video game and once you screwed those away, you had to start over FROM THE BEGINNING. Kids today get to restart 5 feet from where they died and continue on - endlessly [/GOM]

I am NOT saying that.

What I am saying is that I can foul someone on the ice and for the most part can have a beer and laugh about it and move on.

When you protest someone, they seem to take it as a personal attack, then you become mortal enemies for the rest of your sailing life. Rather than just something that happens at every race at all levels of sailing.

I have been involved in protests at local, National and World levels. The higher you go up the more civil and professional the incident, protest, arbitration, hearing, decision procees is.

One of the difficult aspects is that many times, the perception of the situation, which both parties manipulate to defend themselves.

I have sat on MANY juries. It is usually pretty obvious who has a legitimate protest and who is trying to wiggle out of a penalty they know they committed.

YMMV!!!

Played, coached or officiated hockey since 1966. Damn I'm old!!!!

If your in the Northeast we have the Madslapper drop in HOCKEY the Friday before Madcatter Regatta

Tom

Do you guys ever use mediation....(or is that what you mean by mini protest committe)

Mediation is one guy who meets with the two skippers and goes through the incident... no witness's.. He then makes a non binding call. If the skippers don't resolve it then... you go to a full hearing with witnesses. (and you feel that you have to be perry mason.... legal eagles, law and order... pick your generations ace legal beagle to pretend)

Second question... Sounds like your miniprotest committe is open to the fleet to listen and learn....Does that work well for you guys?

How can we change the perception that Protest hearings (if we could get sailors to be responsible to call them all out) are NOT the chance for you to suffer a sea lawyer or require you to be one.

I don't think you're ever going to change the perception of a protest hearing. Anytime you put two people who both feel like they are correct in front of a judge/jury to decide one outcome, there will be at least one unhappy person. By nature, this is contentious. Different people approach it differently.

I like the "beach justice" that Tom mentions - the A-cats started doing something like this years ago (and caught flack for it on here). On the small scale, I don't see anything wrong with this kind of action. However, we do need to be careful to honor the system that is in place and, honestly, quite functional. Formal protests lead to learning material and advancement of the rules when they go through the formal system and are documented and/or elevated when the outcome is contested.

Mark, the beach hearing I spoke of are definately used as a learning platform. We often have great discussions as a result of this.

I have been at Big Boat regattas that have used mediation and I think that it is a great way to settle infractions.

We have used it at Madcatter.

Team racing is different from hockey in that we are umpires NOT referees. What I mean by that, is that as umpires we only make a call if there is a valid protest hail from a boat, then a request for an umpire decision. The process goes:

1. Protest is hailed
2. Protesting boat must give protested boat time to complete a one turn penalty
3. If protested boat decides not to spin, protesting boat requests an umpire decision
4. Umpire gives a decision, which can result in a two turn penalty.

The way the penalty system works in team racing, there is still an emphasis on self-policing. If you admit a foul and spin right away, it is only one turn, but if you wait for an umpire you face a two turn penalty. On the course that extra turn is a game changer.

Dave wrote



I have been thinking about this and I have decided that I lost the argument... I have tried over the years to persuade sailors how to read and look at the rules and I nothing seems to be persuasive.

The old system of "Call your own foul on yourself and honor ROW " is now a system... of "let the other guy call foul on me and then deal with it...." (The ...I always do my circle and get out of jail). This is much closer to the other games we play in our culture.

So... in this new culture...
Make your cross and do a circle when the other guy calls foul...
ooching a laser is not a foul unless you are caught.... (do it better the next time and then you won't be caught)...
Soaking your spin sock is a push of the rule at measurement... and no problem if you get away with it... AND you just move to the back of the line if you do get caught.

So, Dave you asked about all of the F18 sail cloth/patch material rule fubar at their worlds a few years ago...
How do you get all of those technical violations with all of those equipment rules at a Worlds?

Well... "In a call the other guys foul world"... You push the rules, and wait for the foul call.... and when half the fleet is basically illegal... you know they will punt and then change the rules. Remember, that fubar only blew up when one faction had a business interest in nailing the other guy and his business interest.

All of the hypocrisy of... a rule is a rule opining at the time ... was too much....Because we are in the "wait for the call of foul" world...... Not a call your own world.

In the Old school world... the sailors would have DSQ'd themselves and asked to have a second fleet and then the owners would reek vengeance on the sail makers who screwed up and screwed them.



Sailboat racing is not about morality... It was just one of call your own foul and honor the ROW.... (a so called game agreed to by gentleman..) I don't think you ever legislate morality.... (the right thing to do ... is the right thing to do.)
Sadly, I accept the fact.... that this era is over.

In reading the posts above, I don't see how you've come to this conclusion. Jake, Tom, Ding and others are all saying that they respect the game and call their own fouls when they can. They also respect their fellow competitors and spin when asked during close calls.

I race the same way, and while I haven't raced with Jake or Ding, I've been racing with Tom, his fleet, and the Hobie class since 1996, and can definitely attest that this is the prevailing attitude and class culture.

I also spend a lot of time at Opti and other monohull regattas. You would be disgusted and appalled at what happens there (think 40+ boats of an 80-boat fleet arriving at a gate at the same time, bumper boats, marks being all but sunk, rarely a protest and never any circles). That, and the callous way some OAs feel about changing class rules for individual regattas makes me cringe, twitch and drool.

Other than some folks in the other thread missing the requirement to retire (rather than spin) if a significant advantage is obtained, all in all my experience is that we are much better at self-policing than most monohull classes.

Mike

Some of the best protest hearings I've sat(as a judge) were at High-School Regattas. The competitors were polite, straightforward, and appreciative. Even when the ruling went against them, they've thanked the PC, shaken hands, and accepted penalty without complaint. The sailors din't dispute the decision but often asked what they did wrong and how to avoid making the mistake again. It's great as long as we can keep the coaches away (we came close to throwing a coach off the premesis once).

The most combative and least mature competitors often come from PHRF (big boat) racing. I worked a very large regatta once that spawned two Rule 69 hearings.

In adult dinghy racing, there seems to be an aversion to protesting. I think people view a protest as an accusation of cheating (which it is not). It's simply enforcement. Also, there's a desire to avoid filing a protest on shore because it delays the party (particularly for cat sailors), especially if the regatta outcome is not affected.

Personally, I don't believe that the "good old days when people followed the rules" ever truly existed. Human nature has not changed - nostalga has simply clouded our memories. For the most part though, I think sailors at the club level generally show great personal integrity when it comes to following the rules.

If, however, competitors witness rule infractions and don't protest, then they don't deserve to complain. They are (how shall I put this politely)... not part of the solution.

Regarding class rule changes, see RRS 87. Sailing instructions may change a class rule only when the class rules permit the change, or with written permission of the class association.

Sincerely,
Eric

AS THEY UNDERSTAND THEIR RESPONSIBILITY AND ACKNOWLEDGE IT..
fixed it for you.. now it fits the world I see.

and that is the problem for the current rules. For example, The laser sailors and their ooching behavior either simply don't see the problem the way the rules are written or have low personal integrity... hmm that is a problem when so many violate the rules... the problem is similar to the sails issues at the F18 worlds..


what has shifted is the understanding of honor and responsibility to call your own. It shifted to... Wait for the foul call/protest.

Certainly, nothing was perfect back in the day... but the norm has shifted and the Judge's POV in the OP acknowledges the change and looks for solutions. I have been unwilling to accept his premise. sigh...

There is no argument that the ROW boat must exercise their responsibility to the fleet and hail protest.

The problem of no protest is bigger then the platform on which they get to stand and complain.... the problem gets to safety and enjoyment of the game by the fleet....

Do you think the rules were pushed less, the same, or more when the penalty was a DSQ/retirement?

Don't personally remember that world.... So, around the bar... the old guys will tell you... boats crashing into one another is expensive and just not acceptable...
This is YACHT racing after all... not Car racing.

DSQ would certainly create a different game.
Just like the shift to WL racing from the point to point or big triangle races I sailed as a kid.
The change in the rules mindset correlates with the change in the kinds of sailing we do.

The country club sports, sailing, golf, tennis share some history... I think golf is a call your own foul sport as well... I don't play... but do you call foul on your partner.. of are you just playing the course. Has that sport changed?

Check the Basic Principle of Sportsmanship and the Rules. It states:
"Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow AND ENFORCE" (emphasis mine).

How can you bemoan demise of the "fundamental principle" if you won't follow it yourself? If you don't enforce the rules, don't complain when they are broken. Don't expect Race Committee or Protest Committee to enforce the rules for you. Don't expect that changing the penalty for an unenforced rule will change anybody's behavior on the water.

And no, I don't accept the assertion that the "norm has shifted". Sailors broke the rules 50 years ago and they didn't DSQ themselves (the only penalty available at the time) without a protest hearing. I don't see how ooching and sail material affect safety, but if rule infractions are affecting your fleet's enjoyment of the game, then enforce the rules.

Eric, didn't mean to say it's all bad in mono-world, but at the average regatta, we're much better. College sailing is a notable difference as well.

You made my point with RRS 87. But, just because the rule is in the book doesn't mean they don't ignore it. I push back every time I'm asked to review as a judge or PRO, and point out that rule. I specifically mention that I'm sensitive to it because of my Hobie racing, militant enforcement of class rules, background.

One of the most common (and absolute stupidest) examples: removing the requirement to carry a whistle (one of maybe three safety rules) because the OA thinks this would require them to supply them for free to the sailors. With the number of certified judges and ROs available for these particular regattas and OAs, this one just blows my mind.

Mike

John Craig, the AC PRO spoke about the rethinking of the rules for the cup compettion at a talk i attended. The accuracy of the data collection on the AC45's changed the culture of the fleet with respect to their using the AC version of the RRS. All of the sailors started out with the mindset of ... Let the other guy call foul.... Push the line etc. ...Standard operating principals here.. So, they pushed the rules. (They were long past the standard of call your own foul.)

Craig reports that he was surprised at how quickly the AC guys adjusted when they figured out that the computer did not lie... They could not BS anyone and they recognized it... With no chance to game the system or their opposition they adjusted ... So... they reset and sailed by the rules. The on the water judges had less to do... They still make errors on the water but he said it is different. He noted that they had not anticipated this outcome on the game.



Of course people broke the rules, that is a silly argument.

We disagree about the shift.. and your POV is in the majority.

How sailors view the responsibility inherent in the rules has a huge effect on the game.... (see Craig) The pro's shifted to an exact standard of the rule. ... They don't call their own fouls on themselves with on the water judges but the reset was demanded by the accuracy of the on board data on each boat.