Dave and all,

Since I was the race officer for the 2008 NAs in Pensacola I have admired the class. Do not get me wrong - the F 18 Class is the top of the pyramid for HP Class catamaran racing in the USA and will remain there for quit some time.

How could I down the F 18 following you and Laura's great performance against the C2 and the N 17s last weekend?

I have also ridden the NACRA train long enough to know what their definition is of 'SMOD.'

The new NACRA 17 will slowly join club - level starting lines in a couple years, and F 18/F 16 loyalists will remain devoted because of the many friendships developed in those classes over the years.

The Rice family will probably have the F 16 until the government outlaws public sailing for safety reasons :-)

Aaaaa...I guess it's been about a year since we had another iteration of the great handicap debate...please proceed.

I highly doubt that, from what I saw the N17s are very fast downwind especially in light to moderate conditions (which I'm guessing Miami has).

Like some others said, the N17 fits it's calling pretty well; Mixed, lightweight teams looking toward the Olympics. Several will trickle into the regular sailing circles, which is fine...but it doesn't address the needs of the normal F16 or F18 racer/sailor very well. I don't see it encroaching much at all into either one of those classes.

Have you asked your Nacra dealer how many new F18s he has sold compared to N17s?

I know that I speak for many (if not most) of us here: Great googley moogley, please don't...

Mike

Ah... ignorance is still blissful after all of these years.

So.... you have a SINGLE FORMULA... The formula describes a non linear curve... the paramaters in the SINGLE formula match up to boat measurements (sail area, all up weight, etc etc etc). Plug in your boats measurements and you get your rating.

The question is how accurate is your class's rating (F18) relative to (F16) or the curvey board( N17)'s AND the rest of the catamaran classes...



Ah... the words MANIPULATED (oooo... bad word) to MATCH THE REAL WORLD.... Try using the more neutral and accurate word "Fit the parmaters" to match the real world.

In other words..... BS ..... NOPE.... This is just your twisted characterization.
Really... how dense can you be..

The Portsmouth system generates A SINGLE Individual rating based on the top boat in the class between the top yardstick boats in the fleet.... It is proven to be easily skewed by a rock star who campaigns the boat... crushes the weekend warior and generates an innacurate rating.. IE his personal handicap rating versus the fleet... (See the F16 rating FUBAR (when no body raced the boat) ... or the P19MX rating when Randy designed and raced that rig from 20 years ago or the CFR20)

Texel and SCHRS generate a SINGLE FORMULA which generates an entirely new rating table adjusting all of the boats ratings to each other. Huge differences between the two mechanisms in how the table is generated.

Dave writes.


I agree Handicap racing has it's place.

I have NO idea what "real credibility" means... If you win Texel... does that mean your win has marginal real credibility?

Handicap racing will never resolve sailing performance differences as well as one design racing. The NOISE in the actual racing and the accuracy and precision of the ratings table (SCHRS to PHRF to Portsmouth) limit the resolution. That is life... but we do agree ... Handicap racing has its place.

It is also true that the sound and fury over ratings is mostly BS... most Racing Results on the water have time differences that don't require more accuracy and precision from the handicap system. In other words... If you loose a race... the decimal point in your rating is not the issue. (Ask your scorekeeper to publish the BCR... the back calculated rating for your performance... IE what rating would you have needed to win that race).

So.... in 2013... the huge number of Dead Boat Society classes are now in landfills.... We KNOW that a 30 year old P19 cannot sail to its rating.. Fact of life these boats are not racing.

Handicap racing has its place in rating the active one design classes when they decide that more fun is had with more boats in the race... and handicap is the way to get that. So far, nobody forsees a N17 non olympic racing class forming...
SO... if you want those boats to play... you have to race F16's F18's N17s N20's and NCarbon20s against one another on handicap.

From my point of view.. Credibility is not my concern...
Fun Factor is my concern and more boats on the line = More Fun....
ergo pick the most transparant handicap rating system available (SCHRS) and go sailing.

Yes, more boats on the line equals more fun. Rating systems that the sailors don't trust take a lot of that fun away after the scores are posted. No one ever wants to admit that they went the wrong way, pinched too much or blew too many tacks when there's something much easier to blame: the rating/system.

The rise of OD/formula racing, at the expense of handicap racing is not unique to cats, or the Portsmouth system, and the reasons are the same.

Can we be done now?

Mike

Mike, you can't stop this train. Don't waste your energy.

Bwahahahaha

Mark,

How blind can you be?
Portsmouth was just open about how they worked the numbers. The schrs and texel just hide the politics behind a calculation.
It does not take any time at all to look at the calculation and see it flawed in its logic as almost every variable is inherently self limiting by nature. Then a little history on the changes continually made to it clearly show politics behind the scenes.

Don't have to check with the dealer... more N17's... duh! We've all been around long enough to pretty much know how this is going to play out. The big plus is more lady skippers.

Now boys no need to get snarky, that's my job. Nobody's is making you look at the naked fat man it's you that can't seem to stop yourselves, which tells me you are both kinda into it.

Yeah, it doesn't have those gimbaled cup holders.

Or a 4:1 traveler. I forget get nothing boatless boy.

and a 25:1 mainsheet for my delicate hands.

Ding, I was with you right up until your conclusion. Could have done without that visual imagery as well. Going back to sticking my head in the sand, right after I get done hurling up lunch...

Mike

I'm actually really serious about actual numbers of F17's in the country. From my sources it is less than or equal to 30. I know how many were in Miami, and the same number of F18's exists at one sailing site in Florida. So again more b.s being spewed on the interwebs.

Finally all this SCHRS nonsense is B.S too. From what I've seen the rating system works as well as it possibly can. We were right next to a 2-up F16 in super light air on the Infusion Tuesday night and walked away downwind at very similar crew weights (within 10lbs or so). Guess what platform weight had nothing to do with actual performance on the race course. Only kills us after we're done sailing. The F18's rating lower than the F16's and equal to the A-Cat's seems very fair to me in actual racing environments; reality is they are all very closely rated and it's the sailors that matter. Distance racing is another matter, where the SCHRS and most handicup rating systems break down (i.e, if we were racing an A upwind for long periods of time it's game over).

Not sure what sex changes and checking your crews manscap have to do with either, but if that's your thing I'm not stopping you.

No mention of the skill sets involved Sam that kinda has something to do with it. Also in super light(ghosting constidions) you know you can be right next someone and you can get something and they don't.

If you think you're going to walk away from a min weight Falcon running at 250 lbs of crew weight in the soft stuff and the team has the skills to make it go you are in denial. If platform weight doesn't matter why is a portion of the F16 class pushing to increase the min weight of the platform? Can you guess which portion?

Platform weight matters Sam, ask yourself do you want a heavy F18 or one that is close to or at min weight? Why did Jill deaply discount the heavy C2's? Weight doesn't matter and handicap racing works... they call that a twofer.

Dave sure I would like a lighter boat but guess what we finished in front of a minimum weight Falcon F16 with less than 250 lbs of crew weight on board in the same race. They were 1-up though, maybe not a fair comparison. And yes it was a ghost race so not a very fair situation. We generally finish in front of him as long as we keep it upright. My SCHRS thoughts are based on a range of conditions and a range of sailors. Handicap racing is what it is, no ones favorite but you play the cards you're dealt.

I have no idea what my Infusion weighs, it could be light it could be heavy, nothing I can do about it now. The nut on the tiller matters first, 5lbs of extra platform weight isn't going to hurt you unless you are playing the game at the very very top. If you think otherwise you are just looking for an excuse.