Of course those boats would be discounted, but that doesn't mean they would slow the average sailor down one bit.

I would really like to get my hands on one of those boats.

OK... why don't you tell us the consipiracy theory de jour!

Can't... stop...looking... My eyes! My eyes!

Since there is clearly no hope of stopping this train, can anyone tell me why Portsmouth uses time on time, while PHRF uses time on distance? I need pros and cons of each. Data tables and graphs would really help too.

Mike

PHRF actually has formulas for both time on time and time on distance. My club uses time on time for PHRF.

PHRF Time on distance.... is default. People understand secs per mile... They know they their rating and the course distance and can figure the result in their head.

PHRF Time on time is used where current is a big factor on the course.... The rating is for the boat.. if the magic carpet is moving all boats at 1 knott extra....the rating is not accurate..

Obviously, you guys completely missed the dripping sarcasm in my last post...

Mike

When the breeze was light the Vipers were killing the 17's around the course, The moderate stuff is when it was even, Joseph and I got a chance to both get on the 17s when the breeze had picked up and that is when they excelled, leaving most of the F16's in the dust.

Then again, we were doing stadium racing...Shifty breeze going anywhere from 5-18 knots.

The 17s where on pace during the pre Texel course racing taking 2nd and 3rd.
http://www.roundtexel.com/results.a...ict.nl/IIS/finishlists/tdo2013/index.htm I

In one sentence you say "duh, they are heavy of course they should be discounted". You say a heavy boat won't slow down an average sailor I disagree, a heavy boat will slow them down exactly the same amount as it would an expert sailor.

I think your definition of an average sailor differs from mine a great deal. Do you think all the current heavy boat owners will disclose that their boat is heavy when they go to sell it? If not, why not?

Anyone that buys anything new wants it to be perfect, or they want a discount. I am sure that even you can understand that.

Do you notice the boat speed difference with a few water bottles aboard?

Seller disclosure, that all depends on many things. Who is buying or selling, how old the boat is at that point and such. Do you weigh 2nd hand boats before making a purchase?

I do ask what a boat I'm buying weighs (if it's in a weight limited class) or I try to find a way to weigh it before purchase. I'm not going to sweat a pound or two - but 10 pounds means I may have to take a hard look at the size of my waistline.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I recall the C2s in question to be 3-4lbs over.

If I understand it correctly,the hulls being discussed are being replaced

Correct.

Just received my new hull and my boat is now a pound under! Yay! Considering we sail at 385 it's nice to have a light boat but that being said we sailed worlds, catacup and several other events and it didn't bother me that the hull was 11 pounds heavy. And ahpc did the right thing by replacing our hull at no cost to me.
Rod Waterhouse had a heavy boat at worlds and he won a race. I don't know who else had heavy boats.

Just something to consider: if we want manufacturers to keep building these things, maybe we should stop doing things like taking away all hope of profit by demanding hulls be replaced over a few pounds, or refusing to buy them, especially if there is data that shows it doesn't matter on the race course. I doubt they sell enough of these to sustain that for very long.

Mike

Sorry but don't agree, sailing a boat which is 10-15kg heavier than the competition does matter.
Manufacturers need to get quality under control and not ship flawed products in the first place, weighing a hull before shipping can't be too hard right?

I disagree, especially in the case of the F18 where the weight limit is very high and the construction technique is low tech. The manufacturers know the weight limits of the class, so I think as a consumer it is reasonable for me to want my $25,000 toy to be on weight. The good news with a formula class is that there are options (Nacra, AHPC, Cirrus, PSA, Hobie, Edge, Phantom for the 18) and if one manufacturer fails to meet the standard of the class then racers will vote with their checkbooks, and they should!

Does a couple pounds on a 400 pound boat make a performance difference? Maybe not, but if the manufacturer can't get that right it doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in the boat's build quality. If you start letting quality slide because the manufacturer is doing a service to us sailors by building boats, it seems like a slippery slope to a poor product (maybe a Laser Performance built Laser or V15 is a good example).

The struggle for a manufacturer to 'build to Class weight' is tough, but the Lightning Class is a good example along with the Thistle Class. It is doable. Hobie keeps the standard by measuring boats. By weighing boats at the owner level, year to year checks on manufactured weight for those production lines can be maintained with the added drama of owner/factory interaction at their sanctioned regattas.

Formula boats are a different story - Do the new Falcon F 16s weigh the same as a NACRA F 16? The Viper is close to the middle, I believe.

The NACRA 17s, the Oly athletes will use in 2016 may weigh less than the current (2013) production line due to advances in composites and an impulse in production. A jag in global economy may even become the driving force down the road.

Let's hope NACRA strives to maintain quality control and to build the N 17 with less resin.

Best wishes to Tom and Fred Roland, wherever you might be...

Is not the Nacra 17 build locked in for the next 4 years, i.e there is a weight for the boat and that is it?? I don't see how the fleet provided for the 2016 games can be any different than the boats the sailors are using. Oh wait it's a class controlled by Nacra.