And that brings this thread to triple digit posts with 100!

If anyone coming in now doesn't know what's going on, read the whole story here.

As for where I am on this.

They do risk there lives sometimes in rescues like these more than they do in training. Sometimes conditions are worse than they train in and can deal with terrified and unpredictable people whom may further endanger there lives through their actions whilst being rescued. The 98 Sydney to Hobart race saw upto 90 knot winds and 80 foot waves...... these are not the conditions you train in.

However the CG will way up the risks of the mission and abort if they feel it will likely cost the life of a fellow CG....... but sometimes there judgment can be wrong.




With the conditions these guys were out in it was not MAY NEED ASSISTANCE but will VERY LIKELY NEED ASSISTANCE.

My thoughts on this is if you plan to put yourself into a highly dangerous situation..... have your own stand by assistance ready such as a mate on a power boat.

This particular post isn't about the VA Beach guys or anybody else specifically, it's more of a general rant. I'm not referring to any one person's post or views.

I think I'll drive my car the wrong way down one-way roads. It gives me a thrill, and that's way more important than the people I may put in harm's way.

Ok, a bit over the top, but not too far off.

That having been said, I'm all for people pushing the envelope of their skills and equipment, and going on adventures. I'd hate to see some general edict about what you can and can't do. That's for us to decide. But it's also for us to be responsible about. The best way to keep the well-meaning safety junkies out of our sport is keep things level on our own. What I don't like is the attitude that "I'll just call the Coast Guard" as the first line of defense when something goes wrong. If you're going to thrill seek (or just go sailing), take the time for reasonable preparation. Take some spare parts, have a knife, a radio, a chart, spare line, etc. Tell people where you're going to be and what you're going to be doing. Think through some common mishaps and think about how you'll deal with them (capsize, weather, breakage). These things all relate to good seamanship, and after all that's what we claim to be.

There will be times that preparation fails and you might need a rescue. That's fine. Putting yourself in a situation where it's almost guaranteed without some plan of action at self sufficiency ain't too smart.

I was curious, so I did a small search. Check out the two links below. I'm not sure they give the full picture, and I'm sure it's a smallish percentage against the number of rescues. Puts names to it all.

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/history/USCGSBKIA.html

http://www.check-six.com/lib/Coast_Guard_Aviation_Casualties.htm

Both links go way back in time, the most recent stuff is towards the bottom. One aspect I hadn't thought about with respect to the CG is the Auxiliary, which is made up of volunteers.

Here's two more interesting ones:

http://www.seatalebooks.com/coast_guard.htm

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/history/faqs/LSSmotto.html


Cost - remember how not so long ago the CG decided to stop rescuing boats that were not in life-threatening situations? That was because of cost. Now you have to get Sea Tow or whatever. One year a couple of years ago the CG almost ran out of money to buy fuel - a good part that year was rising fuel costs, but activity also played a part (if I remember right, Congress initially reacted by giving them more money, then requiring them to use the money to buy C-130s, which they didn't have the fuel to fly...).

Everytime equipment is deployed, it costs. Sure they have a budget, and as long as you don't go over that budget it has the appearance of costing the same. But every hour flown is one hour closer to scheduled maintenance and retirement/replacement of tax-payer bought equipment. But it is there to be used, and it should be/has to be used. Let's just not be stupid about it.

Great post, Keith!

I wasn't going to add any more to this enormous thread, but I didn't understand the relevance of Damon's ditty about dying. I don't think people object to those guys going out and having fun and dying from it. The objection is that other people have to go into harm's way in order to PREVENT them from dying. At least the Coast Guard is TRAINED to rescue people. But what if another passing pleasure boat had come to their aid and that person had gotten hurt or killed trying to rescue them?

It is just human nature to try to help fellow human beings in distress. These sailors were out there by choice, but during an emergency a good samaritan usually does not feel that he has any choice in the matter.

Excellent Shirt!

XL in long sleeve Please!

From the first link , since 1960 14 Coast Guard deaths resulted from rescues (5 of those were from one event in 1961), 16 deaths occured from operational accidents. Looks like a dangerous job even without going on a rescue mission!

This is my last post on this as all things relevant have been said.

I agree that it would be a great responsible thing to do, to have a mate in a motor boat standing by if you are going to go out in 35+ winds and next time I do so I will see if I can get one.

the question of whether or not to sail is an individual choice and to sit on the beach and say "you should have known better" after something happens is meaningless.

I have sailed in 25+ winds and had a great time (because nothing broke) when other sailors sat on the beach with comments like "your nuts". I have sailed in 35 Kts and while exciting was not as much fun because it was at the limit of my boat(n5.8) and my ability to stay upright.

At 40kts I would sit on the beach and admire by buddies CG and MD as they left the beach on MD's H16.

There are 1000s of risks to your life (love the shirt). And the 5.2 sailors did not set off the beach with the idea of losing their boat and being rescued by the coast guard.

We are all responsible for our own actions and nothing forces anyone to do anything except make a choice.

If I choose to sail in 35+ winds and the coast guard chooses to rescue me then what difference does it make to discuss the reasons or to say we made bad choices.

I agree that it is a bad idea to set off from the beach with the intention of being rescued, I suggest we all not do that but I do not know anyone that would.

My last thought: A first time sailor in 8kts is taking the risk of needing to be rescued.

Do any of you remember posts on some of the forums about Fleet 448's 2002 Block Island Sail? This was a fleet event, with a good number of boats. The wind was blowing around 15 to 20 that morning, and forcast to increase to 25 to 30. I can't say what it actually was, but I know I would not have taken my own boat out, or gone solo. I crewed on a friends H16, along with his girlfriend. We got out about 4 miles and turned back. Most eventually turned back. Of those that didn't many had parts break, one was nearly wrecked beaching on the island, one was abandoned when the CG removed the crew from the turtled boat, and of the few that made the round trip, none enjoyed it. I did go out for a great joy ride later with a very experienced skipper, and another good sailor. They took turns at the helm. I remember the more experienced guy saying to turn a little, or sheet out a little before launching off the crests of the waves. I felt totally confident, and had one of the most fun rides of my life, flying off 6' seas while on the wire is a real rush! Later back on the beach I overheard the same guy telling someone he was just waiting for the bows to break off! Perhaps thanks to his advice we didn't suffer any damge. Another woman was seperated from her boat and husband, and wasn't picked uo for about a half hour. She told me she thought she was going to die. Fishermen picked her up. All this was with winds almost onshore, and incoming tide. When I was on my joy ride, I thought if the boat did go down we weren't far from shore and could make it in. It was a day I won't forget! My opinion is that the guy who lost his boat should not have been out there. He was not experienced enough, and his crewwas too light and weak; and the woman seperated from her boat should not have tried to go so far out. They had only been sailing a couple of months. Most of the others had a fair idea of what they were doing, and there was a sizeable group to watch out for each other. Our commodore had tried to get the less experienced people to stay closer to shore, but they wouldn't listen. That was my second time crewing in winds like that. Both times we stayed fairly close to shore, and both times were incredably thrilling! I hope to do it again! Brian

I think it would be insightful if we could hear from the two sailors involved and ask the question, "Knowing what you know now, would you make the same decision again to sail off that beach in similar conditions?"

Many of us have found ourselves in situations where we suddenly realize that we're in over our heads. We all make bad decisions from time to time. Hopefully we learn from the experience. "That which doesn't kill us makes us stronger." Surviving the consequences of a bad decision or two should provide the learning and wisdom that help with decisions later down the road. Additionally, we can learn from others.

In essence, what I'm hearing from many in this thread is the advice that we should learn from others' mistakes. There have also been many helpful tips about how we can reduce the risk while sailing (or not sailing) in high wind conditions - allowing thrill seekers the chance to experience "survival" sailing without putting others at risk.

Once more, the question, would they do it again?

I hope this board stays up a long time because it brings me great pleasure on a slow day at work in the middle of freezing February to look back on that day. At times I can still feel the power of the wind bursts, still see the waves breaking over the boat, still feel the chill of being in the water for 4 hours, still see my friends face smiling while sailing at crazy speeds, still feel the fatigue in my arms after righting the boat so many times I forgot to count, still feel my numb fingers after removing the wetsuit gloves to make a shackle repair, still remember my inner thoughts while securing a life line between my friend and I, still remember watching the sun disappear and thinking we may be spending the night in the drink, still remember the surrealism as the chopper arrived overhead and lit up our dark Atlantic ocean world, still remember the young rescue swimmer’s ear to ear grin as he made it to the boat, still remember him pulling me off the wrong side of the boat, still remember holding my breath going fully underwater through a wave while in the rescue basket, still remember feeling the tap from the airman on my head to signal I was in the chopper and to get out of the basket, still remember the hotel lights at the southend as the chopper made it’s way over land once again. So many more I could go on forever. Not one of my brightest days, not one of my darkest, but a hell of a day nonetheless. I wish you could have been there. Some days from this office chair, I long to be there again. Not one of my brightest thoughts, but not my darkest either.

So you are one of the two guys on the Nacra 5.2 that got rescued by helicopter more than two years ago?

Thank you for sharing your experience with the rest of us.

Re: Ask them, "Would you do it again?"

There is a formula we quote here at Hobie Cat to describe difficult situations:

Misery / Time = Comedy

This is not something you would wish to experience, but having lived through it can bring some sense of positive experience to you. I had a bad experience during the Hobie midwinters event in Mexico in the early 80's. The one hit by a big storm. We had to be rescued as well. I can recall a friend back home telling me he wished he had been there. I thought he was nuts. But over time, this experience is one I can count as an adventure or learning experience... still wouldn't want to go through that again though.

As a public service this is my cautionary tale…Would I do it again...No way.

Sept 25th 1987 I’m visiting my family in Bermuda. Hurricane Emily is bearing down and is forecast for a direct at about 10:00am. At 7:30am my brother knocks on the door. He’s going to move his 23’ inboard to a sheltered cove in Southampton about 10 miles away. Not wanting him to go alone I go with him, we have plenty time right. Heading along the north shore we are about a mile offshore when we notice the sky getting dark and the breeze picking up. We radio our position to friends in Southampton. No worries were ok.

We round Spanish point and start the final stretch across the Great Sound. It’s very dark now and the wind has picked up to about 20-30. Our friends check our position again, a little anxiety evident in his voice this time. Half way across the Great Sound we pass Pearl Island a few hundred yards to port we check the compass bearing to the narrow rocky entrance to the harbor now only about 2 miles away. It’s getting real ugly real fast. The radio crackles again. This time all decorum is gone…”where the f**k are you guys?”

A couple minutes later the bitch hits us and everything goes white. The spray is horizontal. Fortunately the waves have not had time to build too big but we are blind. We hold the compass course and decide that either we hit the opening to the cove or we run the boat up on the rocks and jump off. I wonder who will take care of my kids as I pull a life jacket on. A few minutes later, through the spray, we see the rocky shoreline on both sides of the boat. We had hit the narrow entrance to the harbor dead on.

Don’t mess with Mother Nature.

PS number 2

20 knots on a cat is survival, 25 crazy, 30, call the USCG


I was on my friends C&C24 in an evening race on Lake Murray last year when we were caught in 35-40 mph winds, and we barely made it. This on a big boat, sails secure, bare pole, 3 hp motor working fine, just cant keep it in the water to push us. We drug(wellreally it skipped across the top of the water) a 20 pound Danforth anchor, an some how on the 3rd thro it grabbed the bottom. We rode out the 15 minute squall we the Danforth locked, the motor running, and the boat 10 feet from the rocky shoreline that would have pummeled us had we ran aground.
My point is that 30 knots of wind is STUPID. 25 is asking for injury or breakage, and 20 knots is on the edge of control. Why risk it? No thrill is worth that.

Wow...you're old. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It is true that you can get killed waling across the street, but that does not mean I am going to go play in the traffic.

Play in traffic? Yes.

Play in traffic during the Indy 500? Don't be stupid. You'd be wasting my tax dollars picking up the pieces.

Some may old and wise....others may say his stupid butt has tried that, and it wasnt pretty....then there are those who say hes a puss, but I like the way my boat and my body are assembled right now. I would hate to break either one <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I guess there is a big difference between what an ocean sailor will try and what a lake sailor thinks should be attempted. We rarely raise the sails unless a small craft advisory is in effect. The bigger the seas the better the airtime. Almost all the lake sailing I've done has been in less than 15kts sustained, most races under 10kts. US inland average is like 8kts. I like the challenge of big air and seas, I also like dropping 15ft on a mt. bike so I might not be right. I think it is a personal decision to go out on that type of day. I would also feel that as friends of Dan's this was not the first time they had gone out in those conditions. I say you only live once, if you think you've got it go for it. I have no children and plenty of life insurance to protect my wife. If I CHOOSE to risk my life then so be it.

I hope your insurance agent doesn't see this post <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.