Why do people get all worked up over these skiffs? I mean, some people over at that *coughothercough* site release extra pheramones when they talk about how "hi tech" their skiff rig is, when we've been seeing that technology in cats for years. I really think some of these people take the multi/mono debate way to far when it comes to these skiffs, because the same speed can be achieved more safely on a cat than on one of those suicide machines.

Maybe I'm missing the thrill here. (Btw, I have ridden on one in moderate winds, not as exciting as flying a hull)

By the way- you never mentioned which skiff you're talking about, which sort of makes the whole post pointless.

The whole lot of them... the x9ers to the I14's. Pointless? I'm just trying to find out if I'm missing out on something big that attracts all these rock stars to the skiffs.

I don't know either. The guy that got me started in sailing a little over three years ago is a devout monohuller and speed freak. He first had an SRMax (Henderson 21 sport mono hull) but that wasn't fast enough. He then bought a viper 21 (an even faster 21 footer) and was talking about getting a skiff because that one wasn't fast enough either. Somehow he was mumbling justification about the new faster boat being more of a 'family boat' (he has two very young boys). I finally understood when his wife interceded and he now owns a Mako power boat.

During this time I have never been able to get him out on any of my catamarans. Occasionally we'll meet at the lake - he on his monoslug and me on my cat. I would proceed to literally sail circles around him while he's yelling "STOP IT!" and he even rigged up a makeshift trapeze from one of his halyards! I finally told him that I didn't want to hear him complain about not being fast enough until A) he got on my boat or B) he bought a catamaran. I don't think I'll ever understand.

I'm not trying to poke fun at our friends with few hulls, but if its truely outright speed they want, then I think the clear choice are cats.

(or kiteboards, another form of suicide machine)

I have raced I14's and a year ago got to crew on an 18 while in New Zeland during a practice race. I think the 18's are pretty exciting once the chute is launched. The down wind speed is faster than an Inter 20.

I have always found it funny how cats get a bad rap. Talk about instability, look no further than 14 and 18 foot skiffs. They are fun but very tough to control. But yet cats are always called "tippy"... makes me laugh.

As long as catamarans continue to evolve, they will be a better small boat. The one thing that dissapoints me about cats is their inability to handle choppy water. I know some of this is being addressed, but sailors also want bouancy. Right now it is a battle between smaller volume hulls that handle waves better or larger volume hulls that handle people better.

I can't beach a skiff, so I will never own one. I just hope cats continue to evolve. They are very flexible boats and currently do have many advantages over other boats. The ability to be flexible is really the big selling point.

and another thing...why do these guys resist putting a real, honest to goodness, square top on their boat? why do this roundy thing and try to keep the battens horizontal? Lop that thing off, put a 45 degree batten on it and be done (see pic)! Is it because multis did it first? What'up? That thing looks a bit unsupported below the second batten.

I think they need at least 3 or 4 more square acres of sail area... wouldn't you say thats about right jake?

maybe another foot or two on that sprit would do it too!

While moving as (or nearly) fast as these guys probably are, I never have the feeling that I'm on the verge of breaking everything...It's got to be on their minds.

seems to me that whenever the skiffs want to go faster, they put a bigger stick up there and add more cloth, while the cats have, for the most part, gotten faster by refining characteristics of a basic premise. For example, wave piercing bows, rotating wing masts, and the new MMA2 shows what techniques in hull designs can improve an already go-fast platform.

I'm pretty biased of course. They've probably done the same thing. Just seems to me that they're always talking about how they put a 45' mast on an 18' boat and were totally shocked when they hit 25 knots and 3 broken ribs.

>>>The one thing that dissapoints me about cats is their inability to handle choppy water.

Ah man ! You can't be serious ! I do a little 49 sailing myself on the side and in chop it is awful. Each time the wing hits a wave you think you are going to make 360 on the spot. There is hardly any control anymore just surviving each new set of waves.

When under spinnaker you just crash when the leeward wing hits.

Maybe I-14's (no wings) are much better in this respect but don't talk "ability to handle chop" with respect to 49-er , 18 ft and laser 4000 / 5000. Been on all except the 18 and all did poorly in chop. Unless you want to count the swimming a being fully in control.

>>I know some of this is being addressed, but sailors also want bouancy. Right now it is a battle between smaller volume hulls that handle waves better or larger volume hulls that handle people better.

Yes indeed that is because 3/4 of the builders don't know what they're doing. Eichner of flyer knows, Boulogne of Cirrus knows, even that guy from Alado knew (orginal Tiger) , Rodney Marsh/Yves Loday/Reg White knew/knows (Tornado / Spitfire) and some 2 or three others but that is it.

The remainder just make flashy commercials and brilliant sales pitches.

With respect to skiffs. I think it is the challenge to sail one well, which is hard to do. For speed and control a cat wins everytime. Now I'm hooked to the 49-er; gives me a great kick to keep it upright in any condition. But it is a useless but when your crew don't know what he or she is doing or dislikes swimming. It is also a good workout, you get plenty of excersize sailing this one.

18's ? I hear rumours that (new) Tornado's are beating them upwind and downwind so I'm not sure if these boat are still the fastest (small) sailboat in the world.


Wouter

the deal with monos is their ability to tack on a dime without losing momentum. i dont know how that relates to an 18 but what i gave up when i switched to cats was the ability to make multiple tacks to stay in phase and use every windshift. to be honest thats a very sweet attribute of sailboat racing that we catters give away for blazing speed. the only situation in which i lose to the monos is in shifty conditions when they can work every shift, while i forge ahead wondering how long the header will last.

Danny,

I disagree - yes, we go from a greater speed to a lesser speed than mono's when tacking, but we accelerate much faster. In heavy air and flying a hull if we nail a tack, we can barely switch sides fast enough. Secondly, while I am poor at predicting shifts I am convinced that the key to succesfully working a catamaran upwind is proper forcast of the shifts. If you wait until you are affected by the shift you will have already gone through half of it by the time you can react. Ahhh, the pains of speed!

yikes...main inversion (and on purpose for speed apparently). How do you keep the rig up with that masthead chute and very little main sheet? (do they have a backstay? - I don't see how they can with all that roach).

If anyone doesn't think a cat can tack pretty fast- try an A-class in a breeze. Roll tacking has to be pretty precise, since the boat is accelerating on its new tack before the driver has thought about it. You have to think about what to grab while on the way in from the trapeze. Full speed trapped out to dang near full speed trapped out in 9 seconds? Yup, some can. I am trying to break 13 seconds. OK, lets hear some outrageous claims about tacking cats with the shifts. (Hobie 21 sailors we don't mean you).

dont get me wrong i love my hobie and dont plan to go back to dinghys, and i understand the lure of speed having sailed painfully slowly most of my sailing life. in our club on the southeast coast most of our racing is light air and can be very shifty. we sail a mixed fleet, lasers, mc scows, jy 15, etc. a lot of these guys seldom go out just to relax, theyre either racing or practicing racing. racing is a game, like chess, and speed is somewhat irrelevant. in the ten seconds that a cat took to tack john potter would have tacked three times, with very little loss of boatspeed, and stayed in phase with each shift as it occurred. feeling his way upwind. i have a hard time keeping up with that, though i love the challenge. i am surprised at how fast and high i can point my boardless h16 against this fleet, given a long enough leg i can walk away.

I think sometimes is just a case of not thinking outside the box - It is a little harder to visualise a batten at 45 degrees still allowing that wing shape in horizontal section. I also think (the guys in the photo)are pursuing another "constant draft" school of theory, in which case maybe the " hook" at the top edge of the sail that results from the horizontal batten is like a end plate/winglet type deal, justifiable if you have deep draft at the top to minimise induced drag, (the vortices that form as the air spills over the top, instead of going the long route and generating lift.
Personally, I wouldnt mind trying a sail like that on my square. (Anything is better than what I've got, tell the truth)
I guess it is the same kind of unwritten code that makes drag racers go crazy for another 10% HP instead of taking off 10% weight.

The skiffs aren't the only ones to use a rounded square top.
See attachment.

On the 49 you have an extra set of stays that go to the very top of the mast; these are intended to support the top under spinnaker. I think the I-14 has them too

Wouter

All skiffs with mast head kites have multiple spreaders, bucket loads of pre bend and some have intermediate stays too. The pre bend helps counteract the forces on the mast tip as dose tension on the leach of the main. This is applyed through heaps of boom vang tension.

Before and during cat sailing I sailed plenty of skiffs including 12s, 15s, 16s and 18s. They are true excitment machines (I still prefer the mighty T though).

These boats will rival any cat downwind in a breeze and the 18 footers are the quickest mono in the world. There are very few cats that will match them around a course. The Tornado is quicker upwind and now thanks too the kite, off the breeze as well. We are 2% quicker around a course than the 18s. You will be suprised how little the good 18 foot sailors in Australia capsize.

The 12 footers are nuts and are probably the hardest boat to sail in the world. Their only restricts from memory are hull lenght and number of rigs. They are 12 foot long, 14 foot bowsprit, 2 foot outriger on the transom for trapezing and their big rig is about 32 foot high. They also cary a rediculous amount of sail area and take a long time to master.

In light breeze they go for their largest sails and mast. When the breeze increases they can reduce all 3 sails in size and a smaller mast. The smaller sail area in more wind is when you really see them burn speed.

These boats also have been on the cutting edge of design and technology using composits. They have also experimented with slotted foils for improved water flow and lift and also done a lot of work with foils. There is an 18 foot skiff at the Sydney Flying Club that has foiled rudder and foils on each wing. The boat completely lifts out of the water to reduce drag but at the moment they are battling with stability and stearing problems. They are continuing to develop it further. It is only quicker in certain conditions when it can launch from the water up and downwind. These guys do not shy from development and Multihull sailors should take notice. These guys are watching us and have also tried wing masts with mast head kites. We (mono and multihull sailors) can learn alot from each other and further develop our sport.