Ok.... Tom Brady ....cheater? or just gaming the rules?

This reminds me of our ongoing debate about HONORING the rules of Sailing (or your class rules) ... or Gamesmanship... How far can I push it.../Will I get called on it...

I land on the side of Brady was cheating... I believe that you know what's right and you honor the rule's Intent.

Bellacheck today said...well... from now on... we will inflate the balls to the middle of the range.. so that IF they lose pressure they will be legal.... Um... DUH!.... what the hell did you think the range in the rule was for?

Brady to speak shortly!

I'm sure it boils down to knowledge (of alleged foul-play) and intent (to benefit)...

But yeah, they're gonna fire the poor sap with the bike pump filling up all those game balls.

And how did they find out? Did a referee find the ball to be "squishy"?

Was their proper "chain of custody" from the ball used to the person who accurately measured the pressure?

the chain of custody of footballs in any NFL game is loose. The refs get them a couple of hours before game time and they check them out for pressure, scuffs, etc. They then give them back to the team's equipment managers some time before the game starts. Each team supplies 12 balls that their own team will use (which seems like it sets this kind of thing up).

When the Colts played them earlier this year they lodged a formal complaint with the NFL about how they believed the Patriots were under-inflating their balls (joke on). It seems that one of their DBs had an opportunity to get his hands on a couple of balls (interceptions...keep you minds at altitude) and he handed them over to their equipment manager complaining that they seemed a little soft.

So...if it's true that it was a normal thing for those guys then, yup...cheating. I do find it astonishing that both teams don't play with the same set of balls (seriously, stop it).

A Tampa Bay QB recently disclosed that he paid some equipment guys $7,500 to scuff up 12 of his balls (sigh) in their superbowl appearance .

My Take..... being an ol fart..

Bellicheck looked like Sargent Shultz (Hogans Heroes) I know nothing!

Brady looked like Eddie Haskel (Leave it to Beaver)

And of course... Brady moved all responsibility down to the peons (I don't know mrs cleaver what the staff guys who take care of the balls for those two hours did ...)


Who of course KNOW how Brady likes his balls....It just like the Bridge fubar by Christie in NJ.... OF Course i know nothing about the bridge lanes closing down for 4 days... I am the govener..... my point.... EXACTLY!.


Oh and PV = nRT ie cold temps are not going to depressurize the ball 2 lbs.

i think (if found guilty of cheating in a playoff game)

they should have *'s in the record books
lose the first round draft picks for 4 years
and 1 year total suspension for the entire team, coaches, popcorn sales guys, et al - HUGE economic loss for team/city/owner


IT is unbelievable that each team a. has their own ball for offence, and b, gets to hold on to their own ball pre/during the game

The NFL doesn't seem to be taking this too seriously. They haven't even interviewed Brady and they apparently didn't do anything after the Colts made a complaint earlier in the season about the same thing.

I'm from here and was a Pats fan since growing up, well before winning (at all) was a normal occurance.

While I think a lot of this gets blown way out of proportion, I've been irritated by this team and their antics for a very long time. Winning by cheating, or even putting yourself in a position (time and again) to be credibly accused of cheating, is just unacceptable and unnecessary.

They crushed the Colts 45-7, which had nothing to do with the ball PSI, but the only numbers we are hearing is 11/12 (balls tested under pressure). I don't believe that no one, and certainly not at least the QB, knows the amount of air (or at least the feel).

The only real solution to this problem is to put the officials in charge of the balls, and stop having team-specific, quarterback-preference, balls in the first place. Or, just get rid of the rule altogether and let them set them up any way they like.

During the game, I'm sure this is the last thing on anyone's mind, including the officials who touch the balls between every play.

And, forget this asterisk crap. Either give them the win, or take it away. Again, the league needs to have some balls here. Of course, the league is run by the owners...

Mike

I think 1/12 in change of pressure MIGHT have a small advantage in cold weather -not sure

I think knowing you have a slight advantage is even a bigger factor... - pretty sure

the league allowing each team to manage their own ball is ludicrous


- if they altered the equipment and had a physical and psychological advantage .... I would think it may have had something to do with it .

As far as whether or not it makes a difference, is was apparently enough of a difference for a Colts DB to notice it after catching one interception and take it to his equipment staff.

Mn3

In a game where HONOR the rules is part of the culture.... then you get cheating.
In a game where you play until the ref calls a foul... you get rule breaking and penalties.

The Ravens lost to NE because NE drew up a play that was novel and the ravens did not call time out to figure it out... so they scored a TD. IMO... part of the game. both teams had a fair shot using the rules.

To me... this deflate ball issue is a choice between honor the rule and its intent... OR push the edge of the rule and seeing what you get away with?

Brady pushed the rule and counted on the officials not catching him. In fact he was caught and they re-inflated the balls for the second half. No PENALTY was charged since it is not part of the rule book. as Brady said... we won the game fair and square... Game is over.
The culture of football is Win. See what you can get away with... its part of the game. There is no HONOR in football... so there is no cheating.

The upset is that we believe that there is OR SHOULD BE a spirit of honor the rule... because football is the all american sport and as Americans, our mythology is all about honor and we give lip service to Honor the game and its rules ....

Well... Brady did not honor the rule.. So he "cheated"...

But..is honor the rule spirit part of the game of pro football. Is that part of the game?
Football is caught between the all American hype (honor etc) and the mundane... See what you can get away with because this is an entertainment business.

In boat racing..... we call fouls on ourselves.. if you touch the mark.... you do a turn. No refs needed... No competitor needed to charge you with a foul. I argue that honoring the spirit of the rule is the foundation of sailing rules..

When the underlying philosophy of a game like football (play and see what you can get away with) is used by sailors in sailboat racing.. That's when you fundamentally change the sport of sailboat racing...for the worse.

Don't forget... the sport USED to DSQ your butt if you did not honor the rule... No penalty turns... etc... A very bright line was used to make sure racers HONORED the rules because the risk was DSQ and the reward was made trivial.

Today... I will push my advantage on the port starbord cross and see what I can get away with... If I am called on the foul... I have a new risk reward... take it to the protest room OR do my turns.. Turns are just a cost of the risk reward of not honoring a rule.. Its part of the "new" game of sailboat racing..

Hmm... A slippery slope indeed!

Do you mean you will cross close in-front of another cat (or even in his way) while on port tack and wait for him to yell "starboard" at you to make you give way?

me?... no... have I seen this on the course?.. yes. Have I screwed up and misjudged?... absolutely! Why did I get so close to a foul in the first place?... because I get sucked into the mindset of competing.... push the line...

Everyone parses their language here... On the one hand... they know the rules... on the other hand... they know the game as its played today of push the edge of the rule. Its the prevailing culture in America. It's OK in our culture to push the rules... its not ok to cheat.. We mythologize our fealty to honor and code.... but ...

I wanted to contrast the big football controversy with our sport.

My point.. The NFL is an entertainment business and there is NO HONOR culture in the business... So Brady did not cheat... he broke a rule...and the consequence was they re inflated the balls at half time...No other penalty meted out. The consequence is that more people will watch the Superbowl to hope that moral justice is dealt to the cheaters aka... the Patriots. (umm... we are confused or just fuzzy thinkers)... Bottom line. That is a win win $$$... but unintentional I am sure...

In our sport.... the consequence of not honoring the rules is that Organizing Authorities REQUIRE a million bucks in liability coverage to allow you to compete and we have prescriptions to the ISAF rules of sailing that can't be discarded and spell out your responsibly and liability.
So... the slippery slope here has consequences.

Guess the rules have changed.. I was under the impression that the home team supplies the 36 balls for outdoor and 24 ball for indoor fields... these balls are given to the refs for inspection etc... like you noted and then given to the linemen (guys on the chains)to be circulated during the game... I believe they have one guy and this is all he does...

That aside, my take.. the refs spot the ball after each play... would be a hard thing to get away with... I am sure they would notice an under inflated ball..

Anyway the Pats kicked their butts... a non issue... I am sure we'll see some pressure gauges on the sidelines next Sunday

Absolutely not. You're assuming a giant conspiracy. They set up the balls to feel like they wanted. I'm sure they didn't sit around the room chanting about this. Even the Colts admitted that they got trounced, and no amount of air in the balls would have changed that.

Again, not defending these guys, because they irritate hell out of me with this kind of crap, but it's not why they won the game 45-7...

As for the sailing stuff, the rules gurus (and coaches) teach you to look at what the rules don't say for your tactical advantage. If you just look at what the rules say you can't do, you'll probably miss some prime opportunities.

Mike

11 balls out of 12 with almost an exact amount of under-pressurization was not intentional? (or, at least, a mistake)

No i'm not, but i am saying IF they cheated it would be hard to believe only 1 person knew about it ( i dont think for a second that Brady was on the sidelines with a pressure gauge and deflation device)

and it only takes 1 person talking to 1 other person and it is a conspiracy


- agreed

do you think it is a possibility that All the balls were inflated to the lower part of the allowed range and all had slight change in pressure (decrease) after sitting around in a different temp/environment as to where they were filled

(although i would think the cold would shrink the ball, thus increasing the internal pressure)

i would also think any ball that is being used (and held closely by big sweaty athletes) is gonna warm up and have a slight change in pressure...

Jake, my point was that the team wasn't getting some giant psychological boost over this. Do I think for half of one second that Brady and at least one other person didn't know? Not for half of a nanosecond. But saying that this caused a psychological advantage is too much of a stretch.

No one will ever convince me that this caused a 45-7 score. The Colts ran out of gas one game short of the Super Bowl, plain and simple.

Mike

Aaaa..gotcha. Yeah, that isn't exactly the kind of thing you would tell everybody about if you were doing it. And, I agree, while it might put "an asterisk" on the win, it's a really, really, tiny asterisk.

I don't know all the facts, but air pressure can change a lot with temperature and not all gauges read the same. I can put air in my truck tires in the am and go check them later without even driving and the pressure will be different up or down and also different between several gauges. If it was such a big deal you would think the ref would have said something or at least checked the pressure.