The thread about Tornado plans was interesting but the amount of misinformation presented is so much I don't know where to start. First of all, I have plans with Jerry Houlton's building directions free for the asking. I do this as a public service to all cat sailors interested.
As the builder of the carbon fiber Tornado being discussed I think the comments from the Tornado class official need a rebuttial. One of the main reasons I designed and built the boat was to prove there is an alternative to the Marstrom program of shelling out $20K plus for boat built of oblolete materials. The anti-carbon rule otiginated in the early 70s when carbon was $150 a pound. It is now about $12 per pound. The rule was intended to keep the boat affordable for a wide audience. In the ultimate perverse irony, Marstrom builds boats with prepreg and Nomex which is state of the art composite methods using obsolete fibers (S-glass)! ! And of course, the original intent of having a class with broad appeal is long gone.
The suggestion that my boat is worth only the price of the rig shows a profound lack of understanding and a level of arrogance this class is famous for. Did it occour to any one that a Tornado that is 40 lbs. lighter and stiffer has intrensic value to some people? Not every one thinks of their boat as "athelitic equipment" and some appreciate craftsmanship and engineering that go into a custom boat. Not to mention it's a hell of a ride out there.

Kevin Cook

Kevin,

A boat or anything for that matter is only worth what someone will pay for it.

There is always someone out there who thinks they can build a better mouse trap, good on you for shelling out the cash to build a Carbon T, but the main reason why the class has remained so strong for so long is that any decisions regarding changes to the boat have to approved by 2/3 of the class members. these changes are invariably for the good of the class. what does the class gain from making all the current boats obsolete? the competitive life of a Marstrom T is more than 10 years, so by throwing them out what do we gain..

Marstrom has made a carbon T, more for kicks than anything. He understands that the class is great just as it is and the only change on the cards is the possible switch to a carbon mast. the case for this is much better then changing the hulls. The alloy masts are hard to produce in consistent quality and they are very labour intensive (putting the taper in) Marstrom could produce carbon masts for about the same price as an alloy one and the change over prive is only a couple of grand, much cheaper than a new platform.

If you want to make carbon T's then get too it, but dont have a shot at a class that has been the leader in catamaran development for the last 30 years.

in fact why do you use the T hull shape? there are plenty of faster hull shapes around now, why not make a carbon M20? oh thats right they already make one...

I build boats to my own designs also. I have built three Tornados. I have the same problem communicating with my friend who campained his T last year. I have absoutley no interest conforming to class rules. I wish the class well but recognize it is all about rules. I am interested in structural design and performance and the best asthetic sailing experience. Outside of class match racing people commission and pay a lot of money for cool custom boats. I agree as a competitor in Tornado class racing the boat may be worth the rig alone - if that. But is was never intended for that purpose and appeals to people with diffenent values.

Kevin

Hi Kevin,

Sorry for causing the trouble around here

Good news though! I got the donor trailer!

No trouble Tad! There are several subspecies of catsailor out there. Fortunately there is plenty of room on the water for all of us. I do get touchy though when folks fail to appreciate or embrace alternative points of view. Tornados were invented by a couple of guys fooling around with some sheets of pylwood and glue. In their day I'm sure the Cougar Class Catamaran crowd or the Prout Shearwater Class guys looked down their noses at someone who had some original ideas. The rest is history.

Kevin

Kevin,

As a sidenote, I think the new gunboat 48 high performance cruising catamaran by M&M is constructed in the same fashion as your C-Tornado.

A 48 foot cruising cat that blows the doors off a MaxZ86 (doncumented on film too). Food for thought.

Hi Kevin,

First of all, I think it is great you built a carbon T.... Something I always wanted to see. I am sure it is a fine boat.

Secondly, my comments are off my own personal point of view. Not that of the ITA.

As a racer I hold class rules and racing as a fleet very important. I don't know what it is like in the States but in OZ most off the sailors that shell out big bucks for an off the beach cat intend to race as a class. There are not many if any high profile long distance races in OZ where a one of special might be desirable.

Also most racers in OZ, I feel would rather compete and win within a class than win because you have the fastest boat.

My opinion is if mostly only racers spend big dollars for off the beach cats (your cat would be in this catagory) and find conforming to a class for competition is important than your boat would not be as desirable as many others.

There for your market - ie finding a buyer willing to spend the cash and not conform to class rules is very limited.

A boat for sale is only worth what somebody is willing to pay. If I was to buy this boat, I would use this as a barganing tool.

THIS IS WHAT WAS INTENDED BUY MY COMMENTS TO A POTENTIAL BUYER.

If you find a buyer willing to pay premium price than your boat is worth premium dollars and congratulations for finding them.

If you cannot, it is not worth what you are asking.

It is a bit like spending $30,000 on and old car resto and modification. The car may be worth $30,000 to you but the market may only offer $10,000.

Kevin: I'm sure nobody wanted to offend you, and hopefully this case has been cleared up..


Originally the Tornado was the 'build your boat in your backgarden and go to the Olympics' class. The ideal is very nice, but in the real world, unfortunately, it does not work out. On the olympic level, if you can buy an advantage, you do it.
The appeal of the Tornado is still strong in my opinion. The boat is lovely, albeight a bit pricey, and is still very fast. If the carbon mast passes the class ballot, wich I dont think it will, it will again make the boat faster.



Famous, or perhaps infamous ?
The International Tornado butt. (ITA) is run by past and present olympics. I think this reflects on both recruitment to the class and how the ITA is run.

Down on the local level, the class is excellent in my experience. Everybody are helpful and caring, when somebody new in the class shows up you are generally taken well care of. I.e. if you break something in a race, you will not have many problems getting help with replacments and repairs. If you are slow on the water, the current world champion might just stop by your boat and give som advice, if present..

I have never met any arrogance or lack of understanding among Tornado sailors, and would reccomend both the class and the boat.

However, I have also heard the same sentiments you mention among other classes. But have not experienced it within the Tornado class. Perhaps this is a thing of the past ?


Anyway, I would love the hear more about the Tornados you have buildt!
Did you make the foils yourself as well ?

How did you engineer the main beam to be strong enough to do away with the dolphin striker ?

What is it like to sail compared with an Marstrøm ?

You mentioned the availibity of plans, what kind of hull form did you incorperate ? Yves Loday/Reg White has designed a new hull form, and I believe Marstrøm also has a new hull shape in work. Both to optimize for the 'new' rig.

I would love to have a look at your plans, but will not have the money to build a carbon Tornado. I do want to build a wooden boat tough, as I have access to an old 80's homebuildt GRP Tornado where the hulls are falling apart.


Best regards
Rolf
Tornado NOR-10384

Stephen,
In my asking price for the boat I have offered a discount because the boat is not class leagal. I would never intend for it to raced in any class santioned events. To a sailor who is only interested in racing within the class at sanctioned events the boat may be worthless. What I was trying to point out is that to other sailors who are not interested soley in participating in this niche, the boat has value. In fact I have had as many inquires about the carbon boat as my 1998 Marstrom. If evaluated with the metric of fun per dollar, it is a great valu. I am not in it to make money - I would have starved to death by now. Many local mixed class fleets would love to have a hybrid toy to join in the racing fun.

Kevin

Rolf,
Agree totally about Tornado Class at the local level. I have been embraced and supported by the local Tornado guys. We have collaborated on ideas such as a electric tilt trailer design and a carbon prepreg spin launchers. Unlike the pros, I share with anyone who is interested what I have learned about boatbuilding and composites. My shop is awlys open to local sailors who need materials or advice.

Kevin

I like your restored car analogy. To take it a little further, if the restorer understands the market will support a 10,000 price that is what he should ask. Accordingly, my price for the carbon boat acknowledges it is not class legal. However to suggest that the craftsman who built the car is only entitled to the cost of the paint and the raw materials used is a pretty exterme point of view. You could ask him to sell it to you for $100 but he is likely to immediately kick you out of the shop! If the basis of your $100 dollar offer is that it no longer looks like the stock model car, so what? There are people might appreciate the restored car just because it performa better than the stock car, or because they appreciate the craftsmanship, or, jut because they want something different.

Kevin

What are you asking for that carbon T anyways ?

Kevin

It is amazing that in just about every field, a custom product is worth far more than a stock item…. except in catamarans…isn’t that strange? Some just live in different worlds I guess…LOL…keep pushing against the status quo…

Bob

In the classifieds section of the local newspaper it's quite common to see "Over $30,000 invested, you can have it for only $10,000!" or some such in an ad for a custom car.

The truth is the vast majority of people who customize cars do it for fun, knowing that they can never get their money back out of it. When they want to start a new project they end up selling their old project at a huge loss.

It sucks, but people who are into custom stuff tend to like to do the cusomization themselves, or at least direct the customization. They tend to be not so interested in customizations dreamed up by someone else, unless that someone else is famous.

I think alot of you are missing Kevin's point. He builds to develop and build not to save a buck on a factory boat. He does some really awesome cutting edge stuff in his GARAGE.He even built his own autoclave. If you can't respect all that than piss on ya. If I lived a little closer I'd be picking his brain and learning everything I could.There's alot of manufacturers who could take a note or two also.
Todd A. Hart

Yeah Kevin showed me his operation when I went to check out the boat. The autoclave was definitely cool, and the foils he was working on for a project were so light I couldn't believe it. Definitely one of the first guys I'd consult when it comes to engineering a boat.

Great, but why would you build a Carbon Tornado? compared to modern hull shapes the rocker is too far forward, the deck is too flat and the boards are way to low profile. I just dont see the point in developing a cutting edge boat with hull shapes that are 30 years old? why not use all this building ability to create something that is truly cutting edge?

MACCA,
The reason is quite simple. I had an old hull around to use as a plug - save me the time of shaping a plug from scratch. The purpose of the excercise was to try some structural design improvements and learn to make tooling for vacuum bag with elevated temp post cure. I already had all the templates. Since then I have learned to make tooling for 350 degree cure at pressure which allows carbon prepreg/ Nomex core construction.
I am not adverse to designing new shapes and have done several. Have to admit though that new fads seem to be over blown. If you put 250 square feet on a 20 x 10 foot cat that
weighs 310 lbs, it will go fast - even if the hulls are shaped like a hot dogs. I don't mean to be irreverant, I have some naval architecture background and understand the technical part. Tornado shape is not that bad. Rocker means more wetted area but also makes quicker turning with less energy dissapation. Flatter section aft would be nice for high speed support where you need it but adds wetted area in light airs. A board with a aspect ratio of 3 is only about 5% less efficient than aspect ratio of 5 (reference is Marhaj; aerohydrodynamics of sailing). It's the art of compromises.

Kevin

kevin,
how much carbon/nomex work have you done?

Hi Kevin,

Just for the record, I mean no disrespect to you or your boat.

My advice, whilst not knowing the asking price, was intended to offer advice as to what price I would be looking to pay and how I would bargain down if the price was too high for my liking.

In all truth, the purchaser is always looking for a way to screw the price down as much as they can. Not being class legal gives more opportunity to do this. When buying or selling it pays to be ruthless. Buyer tries to bargain down as much as he can and in turn the seller will try to get the maximum for his sale. Of course sometimes the two may never reach an agreement they are both willing to accept. Therefore, no sale or no sail.

I also agree with Macca. Would be more advantageous to experiment with a faster shape or may be add high profile dagger boards.

I understand you did this too save time and money, and good on you for it. If you wished you could incorporate other mods such as high profile dagger boards. You have already done this with the strikerless front beam.

Good luck with any future mods or projects and please keep us all posted on them..... Very interesting stuff.

I have in the past spent $$$$$$ on modifying cars including a tough Australian 1977 Ford Coupe running 351 (5.8 ltr) menthol fueled V8, Top loader gear box, 9 inch diff and plenty off go fast goodies.

I also lost bucket loads when selling them (and expected too).

I would like to own an old 1932 ford rod (3 window) or 28 T bucket one day. Might save this for my mid life crisis. . But instead of building one I would probably buy one as I have been left a little deflated after projects I have put blood sweat and tears into have been damaged by brain dead idiots on the road or car parks

This dose not mean I'd never tinker with it as that is too much too ask from any street enthusiast.

Todd A. Hart
I respect someone greatly for having the guts and determination to produce something like this. But I am also talking from a buyers point of view.

If I had the time, money and skills, I would be the first to engage in such projects.