Bill,

A 67.3 rating for a boardless boat doesn't sound fair to the guy driving. If he were to race that boat say in a buoy race against the NACRA F17 (rated at 66.7), he would lose so much just getting to the upwind mark I don't know if he could ever make it up.

Tom

Actually, the T4.9 was initially designed and sailed as a sloop with spinnaker and has been sailed cat-rigged since its beginnings as well.

>>>I only know of two single handed boats that started out as spinnaker boats, the NACRA I-17R and the Hobie FX-one.


Actually the I-17 was in the beginning a spi-less sloop rig design from Australia so even the I-17 didn't start out as a spi boat. later it was converted to the I-17R which lead to the nacra F17 etc. It has taken to it very well, that is true.

But agree with your other comments.

Wouter

Tom,
The ARC/SC17 is a totally different underwater hull design than your typical boardless beach cat. It is more like a round bottom board boat with half a daggerboard on the bow and 2/3rds of a daggerboard on the transom which also steers the boat. The 17 sails much more like a daggerboard boat than a boardless boat. The oversize rudder and round bottom hull aft end lets the boat tack quickly. You do not backwind the jib on this boat to make it tack. You don't have time to. The ARC/SC17 is not your typical boardless beach cat.
The old SC17 used to sail slightly faster than the N5.2 on a boat to boat basis and the N5.2 was considered a hot 17ft centerboard boat.
Bill

Wouter,

The Australian NACRA 17 was designed as a sloop. The Inter 17 development team in the U. S. started with those hulls, lengthened them 5" to reduce the rocker, and then developed the rig as a spinnaker rigged single-hander. The hulls and rig for the two boats are different. The I-17R was a result of the Michigan fleet saying to the dealer that we would buy the boats if it had carbon mast and sail area comparable to the NACRA 5.5 Uni. Ultimately, the development team decided that 170 Sq. Ft. mainsail was too large and reduced it to 165 Sq. Ft. The Michigan fleet specified carbon mast, high-tech sail cloth and spinnaker. The factory left the spinnaker as an option for the I-17 and I-17R, but I think the new F17 comes with spinnaker standard.

Hi Jamie--How the heck are you?

I hadn't really thought about the A-cat at all, my impression has always been that they are expensive and FRAGILE!! Not the case? The light weight part sure would be nice for raunching the thing around on the beach. ( Kidding of course, but it would be nice for launching and loading on the trailer)

Wouter in the late seventy's early eighty's we released two comercial cats, that were standard with spinnaker and sailed one up. They were the Alpha Omega 4.4 - cat rigged with (opotinal) spinnaker, raced one up (or two) with or without the spinnaker, and the 5metre Alpha Omega raced one up, cat rigged with or without spinnaker, and sloop rigged with or without spinnaker sailed two up.
The problem was back then NO ONE would accept a cat with spinnaker -"spinnakers are only for mono's" and "spinnakers don't work on cats" were the common response to spinnakers on cats.
We also had the Alpha Omega 5.5 m Alpha which was sloop with spinnaker and was usually raced with it's spinnaker, although the spinnaker was derided by most other classes of cats as well as mono's (even though it used to absolutely "kick butt".
Goodall and Boyer had a similar experience when they first put their Taipan on the water (with spinnaker). The spinnaker was dropped real quick, not because of it's performance, but more so by the resistance of the market place.
Darryl

Slightly off topic, but the Shearwater has had a Kite for many years :

http://www.shearwater-asc.org.uk/

Just a couple of piccies

Hello Rick,
There is one very important difference in hull design between a one person and a two person boat. The hull height and displacement have to be designed for the weight of two people if the boat is going to work well as a two person boat. The A class cat is highly tailored as a one person boat. With one person on the wire and flying a hull, the cross beams intersect the leeward hull just a few inches above the inboard sailing waterline. If you put two persons on this boat and put all the weight of the boat and sailors on one hull, the front beam will be dragging in the waves of the chop that go with this wind strength and point of sailing. So you can't just put two persons on a boat designed for one person and have a good sailing boat. With two on the wire the sail thrust is approximately doubled; lookout for pitchpole, lookout for broken daggerboards, lookout for broken mast, need more mainsheet mechanical advantage, lookout blown out sail! You can take a two person boat design and sail it single handed but a one person design sailed by two persons, that doesn't work very well.
Bill

Darryl,
You guys down under have always been 20 years ahead of the rest of us when it comes to spinnakers. The 18s are just as fast as beach cats so the spinnaker design technology developed on them is directly appilicable to beach cats. I put a spinnaker on my first RC27 in 1983. The sail would fill and look pretty but the speedo and compass said nothing happened. I tried a few different sailmakers over the next ten years but no success. Finally in the 1990s a much flatter and narrower spinnaker began to work and today the spinnaker is a hot ticket. The Tornado going with the spinnaker has really educated the sailmakers about spinnakers for beach cats in the US.
Bill

Good Advice Eric. Most of the boats in this area are Hobie 16s, with a reasonable number of 17s and Miracles. I don't want to sail any of those boats for the previously stated reasons. There used to be a number of local 18 squares but they are gone now. With the changes from HobieCat company WRT regattas being hobie only, my regatta choices are pretty much limited to local fleet events, plus CRAC (I've never sailed in any crac events except Down the Bay a couple times, and the Chesapeake 100 with Jamie Diamond, but they seemed to have a nice variety of boats and seemed to be a good bunch of folks--but that was several years ago).

My rambling point is that whatever I end up with is going to be an oddball so perhaps a "presence" is not really a consideration after all!

Rick

TRENDSETTER.

Hey Rick, I'm good. Been a long time.

I would say a good A, especially a Marstrom, is the opposite of fragile. I'm sailing the odd-ball Bimare 2-up (it's designed for that). The main thing I notice with it is that the puddles of resin are missing from the hull. It has a pretty normally sturdy fiberglass construction, just done nicely instead of being glommed in with excess resin. I've seen Marstrom Tornadoes and the Marstrom M-20 and they are some of the sturdiest, best built, most nicely laid-up boats I have ever seen. Yeah they don't have some of the thickness of resin and gelcoat on the bottom that the Hobie 16 has, but they are certainly "sturdy". I think you'll find the boat nice enough and light enough that you won't want to drag it around the beach.

Now Bill is mostly right about the single hander being designed differently than a double hander. I'm assuming that you won't add a second trap, and that if Karen's going out it will be for a fun sail, not for some hairy white-knuckle ride in big surf and big winds where you're pushing a hull under every other wave.

If you sail it the way that it sounds like you plan to then I think the Marstrom A might be that boat to last you the rest of your life.

2 other minor things to look at.

1, look at the age of the guys sailing A class catamarans. You'd be a youngster by comparison to many. Yet the boats go fast as hell around a triangle.

2, talk to Mike and Carol Fahle. To hear Mike talk about it the used A he bought has been pretty close to a religious experience for him. And I know he has taken Carol out on the boat with him also, so he has tried some of what you are talking about. Now he's not as big as you but Carol is bigger than Karen and his A is a Boyer not a Marstrom. Everything I have read leads me to believe the Marstrom is the right A for big boys.

Hello Rick

Here is a little background about cat sailing on the bay.
We have several active catamaran fleets. Some may be called hobie fleet xx EG Hobie fleet 32 or 54 or 196 however they all operate as a catamaran club and proudly display their various histories. They are joined by CRAC and WRCRA as well as the Solomons cat sailing club. We work together to support the sport of cat racing and each does their part. You will be welcome to race whatever boat strikes your fancy now and into the future. Feel free to contact any of the above but I would not make much about the hobie stuff.

The A boat fleet is growing on the bay and Chris Ford, Tony Arends or Tracy Oliver (Va Beach) can fill you in. They had 10 boats at Cambridge last weekend. The race all of the other single handers and get scored as a fleet. We also have several Taipan -F16's on the bay which are also good single handers. Dan Berger has a couple of F14's aka H14's with headsails in Va Beach and they have a great H17 fleet in New Jersey.

We have a huge regatta schedule in the region (perhaps it too much) at which any boat that you bring will be welcome.

With respect to CRAC....we haven't changed much... just fatter!

With respect to odd ball boats...There really isn't any such thing... The days of 20 boat one design fleets are long gone... run what you brung and go racing.

Good luck
Mark

Rick, You did not mention if your "two up" sailing would include racing. My experience is that this makes a significant difference in choosing a boat. Jamie is giving you good advice to consider an A-cat if you want a fast boat to "retire" with as long as you will race it single-handed only. My wife and I have sailed our A cat together and as long as we do not push it then we do not need to be concerned about the issues that Bill Roberts described earlier. In fact, our Boyer Mark IV is so light and narrow hulled that it is easily the smoothest sailing boat we have ever experienced in the Lake Erie chop. So far we have hiked and trapezed together while flying a hull but I would be unwilling to put a second trap on the boat even with just our 300# combined sailing weight. It is a joy to rig and move due to its light weight but that also makes it a nuisance because I have to take the mast down in any wind over about twelve mph as it may blow the boat over and/or the 6" x 30' carbon mast pumps (rythmic shaking) which is undesired to unnerving. Since I normally keep my boats rigged on the deck at the water's edge for quick launching, this makes the "A" more high maintenance and therefore used less often (we also have a Hobie Wave and a Mystere 4.3 ready to go that are fine with the rigs up in any weather that we have had so far). If we race together, which we did once, then the wind is light to medium so that we do not stress anything and that means we cannot sail to the boat's PN numbers, especially off the wind against the spinnaker equipped boats like the Taipan or I-17. So if you race by yourself, no worries. And rec sailing will most likely be as Jamie suggested anyway - in wind conditions that will not overload the boat's design.

So I understand what you are looking for, especially if you want a fast boat that is equally good at racing fast single-handed or double-handed and really especially if you are looking for a boat under $10K. There are few good choices. Please share with us what you end up with and how you like it.

Mike Fahle

I've really enjoyed everyone's comments and suggestions. Kind of gets my windward hull out of the water a bit!

You have all given me lots to think about and now I need to investigate some boats. However, one of the primary thoughts that keeps going through this old and feeble head is that I wonder if it might be wise to avoid the newest style boats such as the Taipan, Nacra 17 and Hobie FX one simply because (rightly or wrongly) my impression is that these are boutique boats that will be replaced by something "better" in a few years. This may be the wrong way to think, but in my 20 years of sailing I've seen lots of excitement about new boats and then in a few years they are dwindling, no longer in favor, or practically gone. I can remember the fuss about the Mysteres (geez I liked sailing those--the center boards are sooo nice) but it seems like some boats "go away" fairly quickly. And yeah, I understand that the sport evolves and the companies need to bring new boats to the market regularly. However, my goals are mostly to sail a fun, fast boat with some lasting power (both structurally and parts-wise).

The A-cat seems like a good possibility. They have been around for a good long time, and probably will stay around. Also, for some reason, I'm attracted to the idea of the new supercat 17, possibly because it is built on hulls that have been around a long time and probably will hold up for a while too (albeit a lot heavier than the A). Both are kind of the oddball boat that seem to fit the bill. And, as Mark Schneider said: "With respect to odd ball boats...There really isn't any such thing... The days of 20 boat one design fleets are long gone... run what you brung and go racing."

That all said, I still want to sail some of the other boats--especially the three I called "boutique boats" at the start of this ramble.

Time to do some investigation!

Rick

Jamie mentioned that "Marstrom is the right A for big boys." Why is that? I see that there are a number of different hull designs so my guess is that the Marstrom has the most hull volume? There is a boyer for sale locally and a number on the A-cat site but no Marstroms? One of the local guys told me that the Marstroms are hard to find.

Supposedly, the Marstrom is the most expensive A-Class.
It is also supposed to be the strongest.
Marstrom uses the same hulls to make his M-18 which has a spinnaker, taller mast, bigger main, and is 8.5'wide.

If the owners are happy with the Marstrom, naturally they rarely show up in the used market.

Yes, I wish I had one.

I want to add one different perspective. Let me first say that I have owned a H14(twice) TheMightyHobie18 Nacra 5.2 and Nacra 5.8(twice). I currently have my second H14 and 5.8. I use the H14 single handed on 12+knot days, and my 5.8 on 5-15knot days. The 5.8 is responsive, rudders kick up reliably (sandbars), built like a tank, goes on and off the trailer at Willoughby boat ramp in Norfolk easily, and is comfortable with myself (185lb) or with family. Only problem I have is mast is a bit heavy to put up single handed. Hobie 14 is easy to muscle around in high winds and great for poking around in creeks and small rivers on lazy days. I can have H14 launched and sails up in 15 min. after getting to boat ramp.

Not exactly high tech. , but works for me. It would be nice to see a cat fleet like wrcra in the tidewater area.

Hey Rick,

We're at Bay Week. Wish you were here. We're back on small boats, as is most of the fleet. Not Hobie 16s this time, but Mystere 4.3s and Waves with Hooters. The biggest fastest cat here is the Hobie 18 being sailed by Betty and Dick Bliss.

We should try to organize a Bay Week "Reunion Regatta" for next year. Get some of you folks from the past to come back.