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nacra hull crack found #38625
10/01/04 07:52 PM
10/01/04 07:52 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 106
NW Washington
Danno Offline OP
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Danno  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 106
NW Washington
Hello!

Got to repairing the bottom of my nacra 450 hulls. There were a couple places where the gelcoat had worn off (see earlier thread). Anyway, got some marine epoxy from TAP. Decided to get it from them, cuz they had the most useful information on the web. Also got some silca, sort of like cabosil, but not as good or expensive. They call it Visco-Fill II. Since it's on the bottom of my hull, I don't plan on painting for UV protection.

I started without any filler on a nice sunny 70 day. Used their 'fast' hardener. I want to put it on thicker than a coat of paint, so next batch/coat I'll add more filler. Took about 40cc is all for the first coat.

After the first coat, I noticed what looked like a hairline crack. Lots of scratches had disguised it. I squeezed both sides of the hull with my hand and some darker liquid oozed out (see arrow in pic). A very small amount, maybe a drop. It went back inside when I released pressure.

My guess/hope is this ain't real serious. Starting from halfway up the vertical surface of the bow, making a 90 along the bottom for about 2 ft, there's about 1/2 that length that has a stop-and-start crack like the one in the pic. I was able to get a couple other blebs to appear like the one I described.

My plan is to continue with another coat of epoxy. I'll make it extra thick in those areas. The other option that comes to mind would be to grind off the surrounding gelcoat and make a glass patch. Never worked with fiberglas, though.

Thoughts?

Take care,
Danno

Attached Files

Danno
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: nacra hull crack found [Re: Danno] #38626
10/01/04 07:55 PM
10/01/04 07:55 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 106
NW Washington
Danno Offline OP
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Danno  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 106
NW Washington
Hmm... can't see the pic. Here goes again! Still don't see it. I'll try another pic without the arrow.

Okay, this pic worked. You can see the bleb directly between my thumb and finger.

Attached Files
Last edited by Danno; 10/01/04 07:58 PM.

Danno
Re: nacra hull crack found [Re: Danno] #38627
10/02/04 10:06 AM
10/02/04 10:06 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 160
Connecticut
Eric Anderson Offline
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Eric Anderson  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 160
Connecticut
Dano,
You need to fix this. If you squeeze the hulls and the crack flexes, it will become a problem. This means your seem has split, this is a common issue with Nacra's and an easy fix. First draw a line aprox 3 inches in width around the line. Next grind down all the gelcoat . Use a disk sander or grinder for this task. When all the gelcoat is removed, grind through the resin rich glass without grinding too much of the fibers. where the crack is grind all the way down to the core about 1" on either side. Don't grind all the way through to the flange
Cover the sucker and heat it if you can to dry the core and the split in the flange.

Repair step 1. Have a friend squeeze the hulls together so the crack opens up. inject epoxy with microballons about (about warm maple syrup consistancy) Release the hulls, some epoxy should squeeze out. Scrape off excess. Let this harden untill you just cant dent the epoxy with your finger nail. Wet out a 1", 2" and 3" wide strip of fiberglass cloth with epoxy and place over the affected area in order. Squeege out the extra epoxy. Place "Release cloth" over the effected area and smooth it out with a roller. Let this part harden untill it is sandable. Feather in the edges with the grinder. The fair it with epoxy and fairing filler ie west 407 or similar. Sand this down so it is at least 1/32" below the surrounding gelcoat. sand with 80-100 grit so the surface is rough.

When it is completely hard (2-3 days at 80 deg C) use non air inhibited Gelcoat, let dry and sand smooth

go sailing.

Good Luck
Eric Anderson

Re: nacra hull crack found [Re: Eric Anderson] #38628
10/02/04 11:29 AM
10/02/04 11:29 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 106
NW Washington
Danno Offline OP
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Danno  Offline OP
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:-(

Wow. Looks like I'll be learning about fiberglass. Guess I won't turn in the library book by Vaitses. Here's some questions:

"grind through the resin rich glass without grinding too much of the fibers" I grind off the white gelcoat and get down to the caramel colored resin impregnated glass. Does the glass mesh have a thick layer of resin on top of it as well as in the void spaces between the mesh? Otherwise, don't see how I could avoid hitting the glass.

"where the crack is grind all the way down to the core" What's the 'core'? I guess I'd know when I hit the flange ;-) So you mean the fiberglass mesh?

"Cover the sucker and heat it if you can to dry the core and the split in the flange." Looks like I'll need to clear the garage. Or I could put a clamp or 2 on the hull to open the crack a bit, then use a hair drier? I also read someplace where they had stuff that would cure underwater. Not sure if this was epoxy or polyester. It would be hard to tell if the crack was dry inside.


"inject epoxy with microballons" The cracks are hairline, maybe as thick as your fingernail. I've got some syringes and maybe could use one. I've also heard of mixing microspheres with Cabosil.

"Release cloth" What's this, a dry strip of glass?

"use non air inhibited Gelcoat" With polyester resin? I thought polyester didn't bind to epoxy. But the other options would be to paint the epoxy?

Last few questions:

What type of mat would you use?

Also, since I've already epoxied over this area, could I put on another thicker coat, maybe with milled glass filler or something and see how it holds? I wouldn't want to get into an unsafe situation on the water, though.

Thanks so much for your insight, Eric :-)

Time for breakfast,
Danno


Danno
Re: nacra hull crack found [Re: Danno] #38629
10/02/04 11:48 AM
10/02/04 11:48 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
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scooby_simon  Offline
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Do not have time at the moment to help you with all of the above, but this bit :

Quote
Also, since I've already epoxied over this area, could I put on another thicker coat, maybe with milled glass filler or something and see how it holds? I wouldn't want to get into an unsafe situation on the water, though.


Take the epoxy off again, all you are doing is sealing in water into your foam/mat.

Quote
core


I assume is the foam you should be 'below' the gelcoat and epoxy/mat layers

Other stuff, for the release mat, I assume we are talking about something like grease proof paper or such like which ill allow you to make a female nold.

As for the glass matt/micro ballons, get it from the same place you got the epoxy from....It will (prolly) come in 1m (3 foot) wide rolls that is sold my the m or yard and what is usually called glass mat 'tape' which is a bout 3 inches wide...

If you are really unsure, post aback here and I will go into the garage and take piccies for you :

Glass Mat
Glass Tape
Micro Ballons
Chopped strand
etc.

Don't have any foam at home, but it is exactly what is says it is, just fairly dense and will sound hard (ish) when tapped (but you wont be exposing this much) - It is white (usually)


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: nacra hull crack found [Re: Danno] #38630
10/02/04 02:37 PM
10/02/04 02:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 160
Connecticut
Eric Anderson Offline
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Eric Anderson  Offline
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Posts: 160
Connecticut
OK, My comments will have [EA] around them
Here is some more clarification. These boats are made in 2 parts, left and right and glued together. Where they are glued together there is a flange about an inch wide so there is more glue surface. This seam is what split. The bottom line is that you have to reglue the flange together, then add additional reinforsement externaly


Wow. Looks like I'll be learning about fiberglass. Guess I won't turn in the library book by Vaitses. Here's some questions:

"grind through the resin rich glass without grinding too much of the fibers" I grind off the white gelcoat and get down to the caramel colored resin impregnated glass. Does the glass mesh have a thick layer of resin on top of it as well as in the void spaces between the mesh? Otherwise, don't see how I could avoid hitting the glass.

[EA] there tends to be a 1/16 or so layer of resin without glass beneath the gelcoat layer. Grind this off. Stop when you start seeing that you are cutting into fibers.

"where the crack is grind all the way down to the core" What's the 'core'? I guess I'd know when I hit the flange ;-) So you mean the fiberglass mesh?

[EA] At the exact centerline of the boat there won’t be a foam core, but there will be some filler. What you want to do is grind through about 1-2 layers of the glass. About 1/2 inch from the center you will see a little bit of the foam core exposed. This is OK for now. Take a putty knife and see if any of the gaps in the crack are big. The foam and flange Must be dry and clean. Clean the whole area with acetone and let it dry before proceding.

"Cover the sucker and heat it if you can to dry the core and the split in the flange." Looks like I'll need to clear the garage. Or I could put a clamp or 2 on the hull to open the crack a bit, then use a hair drier? I also read someplace where they had stuff that would cure underwater. Not sure if this was epoxy or polyester. It would be hard to tell if the crack was dry inside.

[EA] Make sure it is clean and dry before applying the epoxy or it will not work well at all. Make a little tent with plastic around it and buy a 10 dollar electric heater. This will do the trick.


"inject epoxy with microballons" The cracks are hairline, maybe as thick as your fingernail. I've got some syringes and maybe could use one. I've also heard of mixing microspheres with Cabosil.

[EA] Syringes work very well for this. Cabosill makes the epoxy not run as well, microspheres(microballoons) provide strength but it still flows well for injecting. Cabosill has a lot of good uses, just not here.

"Release cloth" What's this, a dry strip of glass?

[EA] Release cloth is a coated nylon fabric that epoxy can penetrate, but won’t stick to at all. It allows you to get all the air bubles out when laminating fiberglass with epoxy and also prevents having to deal with amine blush.

http://www.westsystem.com/ can give you more info about this if you are interested.

"use non air inhibited Gelcoat" With polyester resin? I thought polyester didn't bind to epoxy. But the other options would be to paint the epoxy?

[EA]Here is the deal as far as I am concerned. Gelcoat won’t bind [chemically] to epoxy. It will bind mechanically. This is why I leave the underlying epoxy and filler rough ie 80-100 grit. So far this has always worked well for me. I have done many of these repairs. You can paint the gelcoat on in 4-5 layers then wetsand it into the surrounding surface. Mix a small batch, paint it on. Wait for it to tack 10-20 min if it is warm say 70-80 deg. Mix another batch and repeat. Do this 3-5 times and you have a nice thick layer. Don’t let the gelcoat harden too much or the next layer won’t bond chemically. Then just let it dry for a day or 2 and you are done.
You can do the whole repair in 4 evenings.

Last few questions:

What type of mat would you use?

[EA] I would not use mat. You can by fiberglass tapes that are 1,2,3, etc inches wide from marine stores. The best stuff to use is S glass, but the more common E glass is ok also. Or you can get a large piece of cloth and cut it in strips. This is cheeper but harder. Note: Fiberglass cloth is much stronger then the same weight of cloth. I recommend against using mat for structural repairs.

Also, since I've already epoxied over this area, could I put on another thicker coat, maybe with milled glass filler or something and see how it holds? I wouldn't want to get into an unsafe situation on the water, though.

[EA] Generaly, I think the earlier you fix it the better off you will be. The longer the water soaks in the worse the problem will be. Even if the boat is watertight today, eventually the split will get worse.

Good luck
Eric

Re: nacra hull crack found [Re: Eric Anderson] #38631
10/02/04 03:01 PM
10/02/04 03:01 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
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Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2004
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agree on West's - Won't use anything else


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: nacra hull crack found [Re: scooby_simon] #38632
10/03/04 12:26 AM
10/03/04 12:26 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 106
NW Washington
Danno Offline OP
member
Danno  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 106
NW Washington
Thanks, Scooby and Eric. Much clearer now.

Danno


Danno
Re: nacra hull crack found [Re: Danno] #38633
10/03/04 10:33 AM
10/03/04 10:33 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
Quote
Thanks, Scooby and Eric. Much clearer now.

Danno


pls, call me Simon, I drive a scooby....


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: nacra hull crack found [Re: scooby_simon] #38634
10/03/04 06:39 PM
10/03/04 06:39 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 915
Dublin, Ireland
Dermot Offline
old hand
Dermot  Offline
old hand

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 915
Dublin, Ireland
Simon,
I only live accross the water from you, but I don't know what a scooby is. So I did a google search. Is it a Subaru Impreza ? I tow my Spitfire with a tame 2 litre Subaru Legacy AWD. Something to do with my age


Dermot
Catapult 265
Re: nacra hull crack found [Re: Dermot] #38635
10/04/04 02:06 AM
10/04/04 02:06 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
Quote
Simon,
I only live accross the water from you, but I don't know what a scooby is. So I did a google search. Is it a Subaru Impreza ? I tow my Spitfire with a tame 2 litre Subaru Legacy AWD. Something to do with my age


Yup Scooby = any Subaru really, I have a '96 Impreza Turbo (one of the old ones that have the bigger Turbo's) It is also lighter than the newer ones, but cannot keep up with the STI's etc (with 265 +BHP), but I try

I tow the 17 around with it and I have to be careful as unless you are looking backwards, you hardly know the boat it there


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here

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