| Re: New Rule 40.2 Quick Release Harness???
[Re: Inter_Michael]
#39700 11/15/04 04:15 PM 11/15/04 04:15 PM |
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 15 MarineTurtle
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Posts: 15 | I'm usually a reader-only at this forum but I remembered seeing some information on this issue so I thought it could be worth posting. ISAF Sailing Committee Minutes for April 2004 meeting[color:"brown"] 5. QUICK RELEASE TRAPEZE HARNESSES(a) November 2003 Council Minute[/color] The Committee noted the Council minute which read: "Council approved the proposal that competitors must make sure that trapeze or hiking vest hooks must have a quick release of the hook that quickly and mechanically allows the sailor to detach the hook completely from the plate to which it is attached." [color:"brown"](b) Currently available equipment[/color] The Committee received a summary of known currently available equipment and presentations from representatives of Sea Sure(800 units sold), Wichard (prototype-available December 2004) and Milan University (prototype). Examples of RWO (300 units produced) and Bethwaite (2,500 units produced) products were also viewed. [color:"brown"]Recommendation to Council[/color] The Sailing Committee endorses the general intent of the Council minute. Several workable designs are available or coming to the market but the technology is still developing. One of the devices demonstrated did not involve the complete detachment of the hook whilst another did not involve a hook at all. The Sailing Committee was also informed that there could be some patent issues regarding quick release hook mechanisms. Council are asked to consider whether at this stage use of this equipment is best promoted by education or through legislation. With legislation comes the probable need for setting standards and for equipment approval, which would inevitably involve some administrative responsibilities and potential legal liabilities. These implications should be thoroughly understood before a legislative route is taken. Further experience with the systems is required before the Sailing Committee could say that this is a major improvement in personal safety. Evidently they decided on legislation rather than education. http://www.sailing.org/meetings/2004november/papers/SC_11b.pdf[color:"brown"]QUICK RELEASE TRAPEZE HARNESSES[/color] Council Mid-Year 2004 Minute 6 (ll) [color:"brown"](a) Hook Quick Release System – Submission 186-03[/color] Consistent with minute 3(n)(i) of the Council minutes, 14-15 November 2003, Council received a recommendation from the Constitution Committee to delay implementation of the policy on the ‘hook quick release system’. In addition, Council noted that the Sailing Committee had reviewed a summary of known currently available equipment and received presentations from manufacturer representatives. Several workable designs are available or coming to the market but the technology is still developing. Council therefore noted the recommendation from the Sailing Committee that ISAF should do further research into the available systems. [color:"brown"]Decision[/color] (i) On a proposal by Charles Cook (Group P – North America), seconded by David Tillett (Group L – South West Pacific), Council unanimously approved the following: [color:"brown"] a.[/color] that ISAF adopt a new racing rule 40.2 which will require that any harness or trapeze must have on it a device capable of quickly releasing the competitor at all times that means while the boat is capsized or turned turtle or if there is an emergency and the competitor needs to release himself. [color:"brown"] b.[/color] That the original implementation date approved by Council (immediate) be changed to 1st January 2006 to allow the market more time to develop the products. It is worthy of note that the November 2003 wording may have outlawed key and ball systems. In my opinion, this and possible legal issues, are the reason that the final wording of the rule is far less prescriptive on the nature of the "quick release mechanism". There would have been far less confusion if the final rule had used wording similar to paragraph a of the decision. Clearly, the intent of the rule, when read with the minutes in mind, is to outlaw current hook and ring systems. --Quick Release Products--Sea-Sure Quick Release Trapeze HookRWO Quick Release Trapeze HookBethwaite Keyball Trapeze System | | | Re: New Rule 40.2 Quick Release Harness???
[Re: MarineTurtle]
#39701 11/15/04 05:55 PM 11/15/04 05:55 PM | Anonymous
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Unregistered | I say that they pay for these "upgrades". Every trapeze sailor get's a new harness of their choice from ISAF!
Seriously, how are 'they' going to enforce this issue to the lowest level? Knee-jerk reaction. A better time frame would be Jan 2008. This would allow more companies to re-design their harnesses/buckle systems.
BC | | | Re: New Rule 40.2 Quick Release Harness???
[Re: Mary]
#39702 11/15/04 06:11 PM 11/15/04 06:11 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California John Williams
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Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California | We did discuss this in Portland at the US SAILING meeting, but not with any real seriousness, mostly because Judges agree that the wording is wide open. That combined with an effective date that may become permanently "the day after tomorrow" make it doubtful that it's something we have to worry about soon. I can't imagine someone filing a protest over my harness. And then what does the Judge or protest committee ask you? Quick release - yes sir! Sometimes involuntarily!
Most folks I talked to indicated they see this as a problem for classes that use continuous systems, not for beach cats and board sailors.
John Williams
- The harder you practice, the luckier you get - Gary Player, pro golfer
After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
| | | Re: New Rule 40.2 Quick Release Harness???
[Re: John Williams]
#39703 11/30/04 09:43 AM 11/30/04 09:43 AM |
Joined: Nov 2002 Posts: 612 Cape Town, South Africa Steve_Kwiksilver
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Posts: 612 Cape Town, South Africa | Sorry for bringing this one up again : A chat with a Hobie 16 sailor this weekend tells me that this new rule, in one form or another, is a long way overdue. Sailing in the Cape Point Challenge, (85km distance race in Cape Town, to the end of Cape Point & back. Can get nasty),his crewmember accidentally hooked his harness hook over the plastic handle that is in the wire trap-hook that the French Hobies are fitted with. Could he get it out ? Nope. Two of them couldn`t get it out, it had taken the full weight of the sailor to "pop" it into place, and was coming out for no-one. The skipper tried to assist in releasing the crew, while both still wiring & sailing in fresh breeze & quite big seas. That`s when he realized that if they capsize things could become a problem. The crew released all the buckles & climbed out of the harness, something he`d have found much more difficult underwater. Since then they both carry a knife that can be opened with one hand in their harness. Maybe we should also carry a pair of wire-cutters ? Overkill ? Maybe, but you never know. I`m not sure if this windsurfing harness system would comply. I have one, and it releases one side of the spreader bar, and loosens the leg straps, enabling you to get out of the harness quickly (mainly for a pee !  ) http://www.pro-limit.com/displayitem.php3?item_id=1103Cheers Steve | | | Re: New Rule 40.2 Quick Release Harness???
[Re: Steve_Kwiksilver]
#39705 01/11/05 07:49 PM 01/11/05 07:49 PM |
Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 131 Scotland George_Malloch
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Posts: 131 Scotland | Sorry for bringing this one up again : A chat with a Hobie 16 sailor this weekend tells me that this new rule, in one form or another, is a long way overdue. Sailing in the Cape Point Challenge, (85km distance race in Cape Town, to the end of Cape Point & back. Can get nasty),his crewmember accidentally hooked his harness hook over the plastic handle that is in the wire trap-hook that the French Hobies are fitted with. Could he get it out ? Nope. Two of them couldn`t get it out, it had taken the full weight of the sailor to "pop" it into place, and was coming out for no-one. The skipper tried to assist in releasing the crew, while both still wiring & sailing in fresh breeze & quite big seas. That`s when he realized that if they capsize things could become a problem. The crew released all the buckles & climbed out of the harness, something he`d have found much more difficult underwater. Since then they both carry a knife that can be opened with one hand in their harness. Maybe we should also carry a pair of wire-cutters ? Overkill ? Maybe, but you never know. I`m not sure if this windsurfing harness system would comply. I have one, and it releases one side of the spreader bar, and loosens the leg straps, enabling you to get out of the harness quickly (mainly for a pee !  ) http://www.pro-limit.com/displayitem.php3?item_id=1103Cheers Steve If he'd been using the bethwait system he couldn't have got caught that way. Shame that ISAF seem to be outlawing that too! | | | Re: New Rule 40.2 Quick Release Harness???
[Re: tami]
#39707 01/11/05 10:47 PM 01/11/05 10:47 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | and not to worry about it until then... That is...unless you're trapped under water!
Jake Kohl | | | Re: New Rule 40.2 Quick Release Harness???
[Re: Rolf_Nilsen]
#39709 01/12/05 11:03 AM 01/12/05 11:03 AM |
Joined: Nov 2002 Posts: 5,558 Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH... Mary
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Posts: 5,558 Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH... | Don't you think they will toss this whole rule out for liability reasons? How can ISAF take it upon themselves to legislate that you have to use a certain kind of gear? I think their job is to educate and maybe even recommend, but not to legislate.
Even on the big boats, regarding use of life jackets, ISAF only went as far as requiring life jackets to be worn during the start and the finish of the race. In between, it is up to the captain of the vessel (unless they have changed that rule).
Maybe they just proposed this rule to get classes, and sailors and trapeze harness manufacturers to start thinking about coming up with safer harnesses. | | | Re: New Rule 40.2 Quick Release Harness???
[Re: Mary]
#39710 01/12/05 12:44 PM 01/12/05 12:44 PM |
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 4,451 West coast of Norway Rolf_Nilsen
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Posts: 4,451 West coast of Norway | Toss the rule out? I dont think so, if they dumped a safety rule, they would loose a lot of credibility.
Liability? Wouldn't that cut both ways, if more people died while trapped (pun unintended) in their harnesses? I dont know, but wouldn't suing ISAF over this be a quick way to kill off their own business, instead of changing their product?
As long as they dont go so far as to only allow certain brands, I dont see how they could be sued over this? The ITA only allows certain sailcloths, spesific weights and brands, as far as I know nobody has sued them over this yet.
Those among us who race, needs rules to do so in an orderly way, isn't that legislation?
I am neither a lawyer or businessman, so I dont know.. | | | Re: New Rule 40.2 Quick Release Harness???
[Re: Rolf_Nilsen]
#39711 01/12/05 01:00 PM 01/12/05 01:00 PM |
Joined: Nov 2002 Posts: 5,558 Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH... Mary
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Posts: 5,558 Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH... | No, it does not "cut both ways." If sailors are responsible for their own safety, as it has always been, why would the International Sailing Federation (ISAF) have any liability? It is only when they actually HAVE a rule that ISAF invites some liability.
Last edited by Mary; 01/12/05 01:09 PM.
| | | Re: New Rule 40.2 Quick Release Harness???
[Re: scooby_simon]
#39713 09/21/05 08:28 PM 09/21/05 08:28 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | HAH! (but I'm still wearing mine) Included in submissions to this year's ISAF Conference, two from the Chairman of the ISAF Equipment Committee:
148-05 "Delete RRS 40.2 [which is the (in)famous one about quick release trapeze harnesses] from the 2005-2008 Edition of the Racing Rules of Sailing."
or as an alternative:
147-05: "Delay the implementation date of RRS 40.2 from 1st January 2006. Rule 40.2 to be introduced with either the current or with amended wording on a date decided by a vote of the ISAF Council."
Reason given for both proposals: "As noted in Council Mid-Year minutes: “In discussion it was felt that as currently worded, RRS 40.2 was inadequate and that ISAF should only introduce such a rule when standards have been established by an independent body. Concerns over ISAF liability were also raised.”"
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