Hi guys, sorry you probably get these questions all the time but I need some feedback.
I'm a total beginner and I'd like to get started in Cat sailing.

First off, I live in Finland, Scandinavia, and the only brand we have available here is the Hobie Cat.
Secondly, Cats are extremely expencive here and there are virtually no second hand marked.
There are a few old Hobie 16 out there, but they are few and far between.
New prices i US $:
Wave $7000:-
Twixxy $8200:-
H16 classic $12500:-

My only realistic choíces would be a new "Wave" or "Twixxy" or a second hand "16"

I'm 183cm/95kg (6'/200lbs?) and plan to sail 50/50 with my girlfriend and my friend, hardly ever solo I guess.
(Girlfriend is ~110lbs and my friend is my size, ~200lbs)

Which boat should I choose for good speed and flexibility and why?
(I have been seriously interested in the Wave but it looks so simple and "toyish". With the prices over here I'd really like to get a boat to grow with, one that doesn't feel slow and boring after the first summer. Is the Twixxy next step up from Wave? It looks a bit longer with some more features...perhaps a good choice)

www.hobiecat.net have all the models available in Europe

There is an 'OK' secondhand market in Sweden and Denmark, and a large on in Germany. If money is of importance, you can probably find a good deal there.

E.g: http://www.hobiecat.nu/forum/kopsaljhyr.asp for Hobies in Sweden.

Have you 'locked on' to Hobies, or are you open to other designs as well?
If I was to buy a boat today, I would have looked hard at the F16's, or F18's.

I came into sailing via the Tornado route. Found and bought an old Tornado for a song, fixed it up and learnt to sail _and_ repair boats with it. There has been some Tornado action in Finland, so you could probably find an old Tornado rotting away under the snow at the larger sailing clubs.. If you want to sail instead of fixing old boats, buy something better

Hello Norway!
Well, I've done some searches on Google, buy/sell sites and boatshops and have found two cats for sale in Finland.
One H16 -86 (add was posted in February so it's probably sold already) and one Wave (asking 4000€ for a -98!?! ).

I'm not at all locked on to Hobies but I thought it would be a good choice since it seem to be the only boat the shop here offer (1 cat-shop in the whole country). I figured I easily could get spare parts and support.

Serously, at your weight I would not go for any 15 fot boat or less (meaning waves, twixxies, dragoons, N4.5 etc). You simply enjoy yourself at 95 + 50 = 145 kg on it. At least go for 16 footer or larger. Hobie 16 seem a good choice for yourelf and girlfriend. However two blokes of 95 kg = total 180 kg is alot for it. She will handle it in the recreational sense.

One of the best advices I would give you is to look for secondhand boats in Germany and the Netherlands. You can got good deals for 1000 Euro's on 16 and 18 cats here. The additional cost of driving up here and pick it up will always be way cheaper than anything else.

If you are looking at buying new than there are other interesting options for 12.500.

Go here for a good secondhand offer site for Dutch catamarans:

http://www.marktplaats.nl/markt/watersport/catamarans.htm

Take special note of the following models

Hobie 16 Le race 2750 Euro

Nacra 5.5 1950 Euro

Nacra 5.7 3950 Euro (excellent boat for your use, I would really consider this one)

Dart hawk 5.5 (formula 18) 4700 Euro

Nacra 5.5 € 1.750,00

Hobie 16 € 650,00

Prindle 19 € 1.000,00

Hobie 18 LE € 1.950,00

Nacra 5.7 bouwj."86 € 2.250,00

Catamaran Prindel 16 € 1.000,00

Etc

Wouter

Spare part is not a problem, if the producing company is still in business. You can always order parts via the internet, and have them delivered, or make your own. This site (catsailor.com) has a nice inventory of parts and equipment. There are several other stores as well, inside the EU (saves you some tax, sometimes I wish Norway also was an EU member..).

You will find that this forum, and the class e-mail lists gives the best support there is. Unless you happen to live really close to the shop, and the shop owners are active cat-sailors themself.

If there are any catsailors around where you live, buying the same boat as they have might be nice. It's funny how quickly the lust for some racing comes over you, and then having similar boats is nice..


Otherwise, I think Wouter just came with some good advice!

Wouter: I'm sure you mean "drive _down_ to the Netherlands" ;-) Finland was quite a bit north of you, the last time I checked the map (ahh, semantics..)

Thanks guys.
The more info I read on the Internet the more I like the Hobie 16.
It seem to be a much liked classic with a proven design and just big enough for my needs.

I will look over my finances (=selling my motorboat) and then check out what's available.
I can go to Sweden to buy a second hand cat, but I'm not driving down to Holland to trailer a boat home.

If I can save enough and get good money from my current boat I might even buy a new H16.
Since there's not many used boats around I figure it'll be easy to sell it if I wish to do so.

...And no, unfortunately there are no racing around here (that I know of). In fact I have never seen a cat when I've been out boating/fishing. Only other motorboats and loads of "normal" sailingboats.

Well, someone's gotta start

Unless you're racing one-design, I don't see the point in buying a H16. It was an OK design in the '60s, but is an extremely poor design compared to any other design from '80 onward. My first boat was a H16 because I could find them cheap, but I wouldn't buy another one.

Your girlfriend won't like pitchpoling in those cold waters, and this is just about what the H16 does best.

Hi,

You need to think longer term when buying a cat as a beginner, especially where you have limited choice. I've been through 4 boats in 4 seasons as I have developed. It was half an hour on a Hobie Wave on a Jamaican beach that got me started. It took about that long to outgrow it!

I would take Wouter's and everyone else's advice. Avoid the Hobie 16 - they are 'challenging' and not renowned for stability. Buy a seconhand Nacra 5.5 / 5.8 / 6.0 and you'll get a solid boat that will last forever, be stable and safe, but have the potential to go very quickly in moderate winds. You can even retro-fit spinnaker kits to these for more fun.

Cheers
Simon

Thanks for the input guys but the reality around here is that there's a very limited selection.
You Americans have a wider range of cats available.

As I said, I have never even seen a cat out in the water around here and I do alot of motorboating and fishing in the archipelago waters.
In midle Europe you can find more cats but here in Scandinavia they are not that common and I think the only brand available is Hobie.
(One cat dealer in the whole country as I understand it and they sell Hobie)
Perhaps there's a few Tornados as earlier suggested, but I doubt that anyone will know what I talk about if I mention Prindle or Nacra.

I'd think my best chances of ever getting a reasonably cheap cat is to find a used Hobie 16 or buy a new Wave.

Try looking around for a Hobie 18.., totally different boat than the H16 and is very stable. Never pitchpoled one in 15 years of sailing them.
As posted before me, the H16 is not very forgiving.., known as one of the only boats that will capsize in every direction.
Great cult boat.., much like the Sunfish.., and a great class of boats. But I would certainly not sail one in cold water. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Rick

Hi.
Try these sites out as well:
www.hobiecat.dk, (privates selling) select the buttom at the very left just of the black zone (Køb, Salg & Bytte)
or a German store.
http://www.sportmohr.de/index.php?menu=1&mp=Gebrauchtboote&kauf=an

Hi T55 again
Now read the whole tread. Thought I might give you the chance to read about the Hobie 17. Have had mine for 5 years. Great fun. Built for singlehanded but carries easily 2 persons, even in light wind.
On the contratry to HC16, the HC17 is very forgiving. Lots of volume in the front, and wings when the wind is really good.
Check these links:
http://www.nahca.org/hobies/hobie17_specifications.htm#Top
http://www.nahca.org/hobies/hobie17_linelengths.htm

Even though the HC17 is out of production it is absolutely no problem getting new original spareparts, ask Rick

I have to defend the Hobie 16 a bit here, since probably nobody else will on this particular forum.

We have been putting on race-training seminars since 1989. When the wind picks up on the water and all the other boats head for the beach, the 16's traditionally are the only ones still out there, having a blast in the big wind.

Hobie Alter Jr. always said the Hobie 16 was his favorite boat because he was able to stay relatively dry -- the raised platform kept him higher off the water.

I think a properly sailed and rigged Hobie 16 is no more likely to pitchpole than any other boat; the accent here is on "properly sailed and rigged."

A Hobie 16 is definitely less likely to pitchpole when landing on a beach, because it is designed for beach landings, unlike the modern catamarans with their sharp, plumb bows that can dig into the sand instead of sliding up onto it.

The Hobie 16 is the boat that was used exclusively in the Worrell 1000 during the race's early years when the sailors went non-stop, day and night, up the coast, coming in to checkpoints along the way for a quick change of crew. It was able to do that because of its unique design to handle surf and sand.

So it is wrong to call it a poor design. It is a great design when used for what it was designed for.

That's why there are different boats for different folks, depending on your needs and how you use that boat.

Hobie 17 for 145-180 kg doublehanded crews ? Are you serious ?

Lots of volume in the front ?

One can say alot of things about the Hobie 17 but this is really pushing the limit a bit.

Never mind that mast base boom that your crew is about to get to know more intimately with each tack. It is good for your limbo dance practice I'll admit to that.

Sorry, I guess I'll now be getting flamed by various sailors and branded a Hobie hater but advising the H17 for the stated use is just beyond belief. And YES, I've sailed the Hobie 17. It was designed as a singlehander and it is just that.

Wouter

Hi Wouter
Sorry if you think I give the wrong impression on the HC17. I wrote about my experience sailling it.
Concering the weight. According to the specs at http://www.nahca.org/hobies/hobie17_specifications.htm#Top the max load of the wings are 350 lbs.= 158 kg, which could be the weight of 2 persons. I admit: It is not stated anywere that it is intended to be doublehanded!

Concerning the volume: It was compared to the HC16, which was mentioned alot in the tread prior to my input. Sorry for not stating that clearly

And yes I have sailed it doublehanded,- with my wife being pregnant in 3rd month.

Finally I appreciate the different inputs. That's what make this site so great.

Well, I've done it already now, sought the wrath of the Hobie sailors so I might as well spill all the beans.

>The more info I read on the Internet the more I like the Hobie 16.
>It seem to be a much liked classic with a proven design and just big enough for my needs.

They are fun boats, but the owners make them at least twice the amount of fun in their testimonials. That is proven history.


>>I'd think my best chances of ever getting a reasonably cheap cat is to find a used Hobie 16 or buy a new Wave.

If you ( 95 kg ) are really serious about sailing 50/50 with your girlfriend ( 50 kg) and friend (another 95 kg)
Than take my advice. "Do not buy a hobie Wave" . Sure, again fun boats and surely people will tell you the boat will handle anything. But guys, HE ! 180 Kg's on a wave ?! That is not a sailboat that is a raft.

If you have to decide between Hobies and Hobies than what ever you do go down this list in the given order and only go to the next stage when absolutely no offers can be found for the preceding type :

Hobie FX-one (Most likely you will have to buy this new)
Hobie Tiger (Often girlfriends will sails less with you than you friend, Tiger is best with two guys)
Hobie 18 (Like the FX-one a good compromise between sailing with your girl and your friend)
Hobie 16

No other hobie, Don't get anything under 16 foot and stay away from the H17 is you want to doublehanded more than 25 % of the time or if you want to doublehand it with your friend at 180 kg's

If you are really about to spend between 10.000 and 14.500 Euro's on a new boat than don't get a H16 or TheMightyHobie18 but any other type of modern 16, 17 or 18 footer. Trust me on this, H16's you buy secondhand as good deals but not new. as you are not racing it will be no use to sink + 10.000 Euro's into a boat like that when you can have a hobie FX-one for slighly more and that is much better.

And I've sailed all of these for many hours. I know the H16 pretty darn well.

If you are looking for big bangs for not too much buck than look for second hands like nacra 5.7's and 570's (my premier advice), Prindle 18 or Hobie 18's or older F18's like the nacra F18 (dead cheap these days)

New ? Look only at FX-one's (with jib kit), Spitfires, F16's or F18's; the rest is simply a waste of money and Tornado's are to big for you.

The best boats for you and your girlfriend are FX-ones, Spitfires, F16's, Hobie 18's, Prindle 18's, Nacra 5.7 and 570's

The best boats for you and your male friend are F18's, Prindle 18-2's, Tigers, Nacra 5.8's, nacra 6.0's.

Wouter

Mogens,

I may have come across a bit strong. I meant nothing personal about it.

It was just the fact that I know the H17 and the vision of sailing it with two blokes on board just fired my rockets.

I have alot of respect for your wife, She is alot more agile and flexible then me (1.85 mtr. ; 85 kgs and not pregnant !)

Regards,

Wouter

Okay, and now I have to defend the Hobie 17.

I know that there are a bunch of sailors in Dubai who race Hobie 17 Sports double-handed. Must be all men. We were invited to go and do a seminar there, but we didn't go because I couldn't get into the country because I am a woman.

So, anyway, apparently the boats float and race with two guys aboard, so what's the problem?

Hi Wouter
Didn't see you input as a personal attack. No harm done

By the way: Have you sailed the HC16 singlehanded?,- if so, what are the chances to raise it alone, with the help of a raising bag as this site sells?

Well a hobie 14 floats and moves forward with 2 blokes on it, but would you advice this guy to buy it in order to sail it with its girlfriend ?

After 1 ride and many swims she will never step foot on that "thing" again.

Some great advice you are giving here. The gave a pretty detail intended mode of sailing and all you guys do is advice boat to him that you like for own sailing.

Wouter