I have heard there is a small group working on a set of NA f18 rules. Rumor has it that they are setting up rules that
<br>are made to the new NACRA F18, but would also let the old
<br>I18 and Hobie Tiger race with them. If things go this way than
<br>you are not going to see true formula racing here in the States. Up there in Michigan you will see 4-6 new NACRA f18, 1or 2 of the I18 will be there and when some Hobie guy can't find a Hobie event in that area he may show up. The
<br>rest of us will go our merry way Hobies racing Hobies (they seem to like it that way) NARCA people racing Portsmouth
<br>(now and then having enough boats for our own class). I20
<br>people having the most fun with the most boats.
<br>
<br>I say use the EU rules, but the snuffer has to be oked or
<br>no one will show any interest. Why do you think the I20
<br>has gone over so well, that boat is just fun. I want a boat
<br>I can take a rookie out on and say pull that red rope as fast
<br>as you can until it stops. I want a boat that I can use (maybe cut down) the sails I have. I want to be able to buy my new
<br>sails from whomever will make me the best deal. I want
<br>to use my old boat and spend a thousand or two.
<br>
<br>Another NACRA 5.5 sl
<br><br><br>

Nacra F18 is a EU F-18 design and PC can say what they want but they can't change the rule for the USA. And if PC is making your life hard that complain to the big EU F18 brother organisation.
<br>
<br>Now about the snuffer setup, I feel that this should be allowed under the US setup. I honestly don't believe any EU sailor will protest this. I'm quite sure that the rule that outlaws snuffers (I don't know which one)was not placed there to disallow snuffer but some other undesirable feature. The disallowing of the snuffer is just a side effect. Now, I'm sure that all top sailors in EU will consider carying a snuffer to be equal to putting yourself at a disadvantage and would therefor not vote against a change in the EU to allow snuffers.
<br>
<br>So by all means allow it in US, this is a very very minor point in the F18 rules.
<br>
<br>One other thing, right now as the sailor you have the control. Take a look at the other smaller formula class. We as the 16 group have things on track and by dialogue we 've gotten he builders on board. Now UNITE and do the same for the US F-18 class (based on EU F-18 rules) and be sure to have some nice designs and cheap sails coming your way from the EU.
<br>
<br>Wouter
<br><br><br>

What I have heard is the following talking points.
<br>
<br>The factories do not believe that "the formula class will generate measurer's to measure and sticker all sails"
<br>
<br>Second, there is such a small market in the US...they would like to protect their local dealers to some degree so that they make a buck or two.
<br>
<br>Third... They feel a huge group of prospective sailors equates one design with economical sailing. They feel the market for new boat sales will be small unless they can assure the guy of some cost control... therefore they would like to write in factory authorized sails and equipment They point to the Prindle 19 class where rapid sail changes in chutes and main sails pissed a lot of sailors off... ergo.. it was a money game.
<br>
<br>if they allow any equipment to be used... the boat weights will have to be determined
<br>
<br>Finally, the US mentality is One design... pretty much defined by Hobie. They want rules that make a one design nationals identical to what they now run.
<br>
<br>Finally my own opinion.... What will Hobie fleets do with a formula 18 class. I suspect they will race formula untill they get enough tigers for a one design fleet. None of the Tiger sailors have responded to my question on the open board... What happens when 5 tigers show up with 5 F18's... is there a formula race or two one design races. Since they run many of the regattas this is a crucial issue.
<br>
<br><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small"><EM>Edited by Mark Schneider on 11/21/01 06:52 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

Mark
<br> I will answer the question you have. In Division 12 the sailors get what they ask for within reason. The Current local Tiger sailors are pro formula but will race OD at Nationals and Worlds. We have all one-design class races as class. The i20 raced one-design all year and started with the N6.0's all year. The answer is that it is up to the local fleets and the local sailors. We have been pro OD know matter what boat you sail. If the CRAC Tornadoes show up with 5 boats we would give them a class. You would start with the I20s and N6.0s. Might not get any trophies if we didn't know you were coming but how important are trophies to the top level sailors?
<br>All the sailors were like a big happy family this past year. It was great! You would often see an experienced
<br>Nacra sailors helping young Hobie sailors. We all have common goals.
<br><br><br>

Before every one starts ripping the factory/dealer consider

The Dealers Chip Zenke and Mark Michalson take huge poundings on this board... (but still keep posting) Others don't participate at all. Sail boat racing requires three things.. Dealers and sponsors, Sailors to participate and Clubs to put on the events. With out all three working together long term health is problematic. For instance, With out a dealer at the racing ... who will hold the hand of a new sailor... who does a new sailor look up in the phone book to enquire about buying a cat... CRAC does not list its phone number... We are very happy to hand these folks to a dealer who can help them out. (Sadly, I would not send my dog to the local Hobie dealer though) If you don't support your local dealer... you wind up in a zero sum game...It is very hard to get new members joining the party.

Why are dealers involved in putting formulae 18 together... Well I certainly did not see any other individual leading the program. If not the dealers... who was going to get something organized. From their point of view.. . they note that the last 18 foot boat to have real success in the US was the Hobie 18.... They see lots of potential problems and no one standing there and working out rules and meeting the concerns of all parties.

Remember, the euro F18 rules has been around a long time as have the I18 and Tiger.... how come it has never taken off on its own...? You can't blame dealers and builders here. I think the initial post was correct... without some organization... you would have the same old ... same old result. I don't think you can blame the dealer here.

I have several friends considering F18's... they don't want to step up and run a local fleet much less a national class.. they do want to sail. Each year fleets go through the OK... who is gonna be commodore, Creating a new class structure in the US will be hard.... Look at Nigel's experience just trying to make Hobie .. Open friendly! The A class fleet is growing, the sailors love the boat. AND builders and dealers have supported their growth (Bim and Boyer ) They have members who are growing the class. Note how vocal they are in addressing misconceptions and bashes.

There is plenty of room for debate and input... until you are volunteering to run the class, generate a buzz, create some public relations I would not throw too many stones.

(My interest is in the Formula 20 class and Portsmouth) ... I sail a Tornado... It probably won't work out that I will fit into the formula. rule... I applaud Carl and the other proponents for working through many of the issues.. its not a trivial issue.)

Happy thanksgiving.
Mark




<br><br>

Hi Barry

Thanks
Good to hear that the Tiger/F18 group will race together.

Do you collect times and also score your I20/ 6.0 start as a portsmouth fleet?

If not Why?

I believe that with a 20 boat fleet (15 6.0's and 5I20's) , you will have several levels of skill... You don't have enough boats to break out A, B and C fleet as do Hobie 16's. I believe that its very important for competitors to be closely matched... I attribute much of Hobie success to their ability to keep effective B and C fleets going. We don't have enough 19 to 20 foot boats racing to split out A and B fleet. The Portsmouth scoring would allow your new I20 guy to see that they are racing someone and making some progress. ( I don't think we have had 5 of Any kind of 20 foot boat on the course in a long time) Any thoughts on Portsmouth or formula in addition to your one design scoring creating competition of some kind?

By the way... i am in complete agreement with your points on market analysis of a formula 20 class.
Happy Thanksgiving<br><br>

Let me react to this post, also because as the founder of the other formula class I do know what I'm talking about.
<br>
<br>
<br>>>What I have heard is the following talking points.
<br>
<br>>>The factories do not believe that "the formula class will generate measurer's to measure and sticker all sails"
<br>
<br>If so how do One-design classes get checked. How do they prevent me from recutting my manufacturer sails and beat everybody else. And i wouldn't be the first time that manufacturer sails show "some" variance. Point, this is not a pure formula related issue also one-design classes are faced with this. This is just a prefix to retain spin off profits.
<br>
<br>
<br>>>Second, there is such a small market in the US...they would like to protect their local dealers to some degree so that they make a buck or two.
<br>
<br>How do formula classes threaten dealors ? In fact the formula classes saved the dealors in EU. PC EU importer was almost bankrupt, the I-18 and I-20 saved it big time. And how does splitting you race scene in even smaller one-design classes save the already dangeriously small US cat scene. Formula createda big market in EU, wouldn't US do well with that ?
<br>
<br>
<br>>>Third... They feel a huge group of prospective sailors equates one design with economical sailing. They feel the market for new boat sales will be small unless they can assure the guy of some cost control... therefore they would like to write in factory authorized sails and equipment.
<br>
<br>Obviously they missed the fact that H16 selling price is equal or higher than that of several A-cat brands. F16 designs, with goodies as carbon masts and genakers are offered for the same price. As far as I know N6.0 prices are comparable to I-20. How many time have sailors compliant about costly manufacturer sails of questional quality and shape ? I personally consider this a unfounded argument.
<br>
<br>
<br>>> They point to the Prindle 19 class where rapid sail changes in chutes and main sails pissed a lot of sailors off... ergo.. it was a money game.
<br>
<br>Well, and I'm now getting frustrated here because obviously hardly anyone reads the formula rules properly or understands them. Under formula we're not talking about sail CHANGES ! but just freedom to buy sails of the same area at independend sailmakers. Maybe I should remind you that PC sails are all build by Peter Vink and than sold through PC dealors, why not buy THE SAME sail directly from Vink ? And how does this contribute to sail SWITCHES ?
<br>
<br>>>if they allow any equipment to be used... the boat weights will have to be determined
<br>
<br>
<br>Well, always better than buying a One-design in the wrong year and taking a builders word for it that it is indeed on the minimum weight. And I really think you all make to much out of these really minor points. None of these are heavy enough agianst the formula concept, the are used to strengthen a pre determined goal.
<br>
<br>
<br>>>Finally, the US mentality is One design... pretty much defined by Hobie. They want rules that make a one design nationals identical to what they now run.
<br>
<br>So and Hobie has one-design race in EU too with their Formula boat. Hobie EU thinks Formula AND One-design. US builders seem unable to notice the "AND"
<br>
<br>
<br>>>Finally my own opinion.... What will Hobie fleets do with a formula 18 class. I suspect they will race formula untill they get enough tigers for a one design fleet. None of the Tiger sailors have responded to my question on the open board... What happens when 5 tigers show up with 5 F18's... is there a formula race or two one design races. Since they run many of the regattas this is a crucial issue.
<br>
<br>
<br>Well, ultimately it is up to the sailor themselfs. If they don't want formula than just pack it inand forget about it. However in no way is this decision the decision of the builders.
<br>
<br>Wouter<br><br>

No disrespect intended to anyone, Mark. Just my frustration shinin through.
<br>
<br>Wouter<br><br>

I may be wrong but I believe most fleets would race the tiger 1 design and formula 18 at the same time. They would score the tigers separatly for their respective division points, and also collectivly with the other formula 18 boats,
<br>I also believe you have a ready-to-go regatta scheduall with hobie most all fleets have an open class start and it's not hard to adjust the scoring. Believe that fleets are interested in attendence(even hobie fleets) and regardless of what nahca says fleets will continue to hold open starts.
<br>cheech<br><br>

Hi Wouter
<br>
<br>I just want to be clear... I don't support all of their arguments. I am just making their case. What is clear is that no US sailors were organizing a formula for the US....
<br>
<br>Mind you... they still could organize, modify the rule for snuffers and get a racing schedule established.
<br>Mark
<br><br><br>

Mark, you're completely right, no personal offense intended.
<br>
<br>Wouter<br><br>

looks like US F-18 is not going to make it, to little posting on this forum. And the posts that are posted are not really adressing the issues.
<br>
<br>F20 forum has found a major deadlock. The US I-20 sailors want "One-Design" Hobie to change their Fox design to the US I-20 measurements. Like that is going to happy ! Let me say I would be very amazed if they pull it through.
<br>
<br>Wouter<br><br>

HI Wouter
<br>
<br>Well I would not write an Obituary yet. Remember that there are 10 or so active Tigers and 10 or so Inter 18's that have ever raced in the US. Obviously, they are waiting for the factory led group to organize an F18 program. The F18 class is all about potential. The current USA mindset is the F18 will be for teams sailing close to 300 lbs looking for lighter sheet loads. (What do the Euro F18 sailors think is the optimal configuration?) If the class can get some good sailors to move up from Hobie 16's and 18 's and some overpowered couple teams on the I20 and the N6.0 and H20 classes to move down they could achieve critical mass as a formula class (so long as they don't fracture into competing one designs at the regional level/Division level)
<br>
<br>A bit of US history
<br>The Hobie 20 took off even though Nacra 5.8 and 6.0, Mystere 6.0 and Prindle 19 were active established classes. The Hobie 20 was certainly nothing new technologically. The H20 had great success in some areas of the country and floundered in others. All told the H20 achieved greater market success then all of the other boat types. Without question the Hobie one design philosophy had a lot to do with this classes success drawing mostly other Hobie sailors but probably equally important was the high competitive level that quickly emerged. Interestingly, the Hobie 20 class vigorously debated a proposal to raise the minimum crew weight issue. It was defeated and at 295lbs it was the lowest minimum of any 19 or 20 foot boat on the market at the time. Since much of the market were Hobie 16 sailors... racing at minimum was always viewed as faster... So.. set a low minimum to attract sailors.
<br>
<br>From my point of view your 16 HP class looks like a far better boat choice then a Formula 18 class in 2002. If the HP'16s are really the same speed as 18's in most conditions and its a 100 lb lighter boat.... That would be a no brainer.. BUT... the big BUT.. most racers ask me... is Who are you going to race against. They have an even harder time envisioning a Formula 16 class taking off in the US. Secondly, Bigger is always better to us in the US (been there... done that myself) Even non racers.... want big boats...(Mystere sold most of their boats in the US to non racers... Many of them were in way over their head when the breeze picked up... Scared Shitless. A lot of them would let the boat sit for a year or two rather then admit they made a mistake.)
<br>
<br>IMHO, the best solution will be for Formula 18 and 16 to race within a portsmouth open class. In the Mid atlantic. If you pooled Hobie 20 + Open( 19 footers and better) plus F18's at best we could get 25 boats on the line on our best day.
<br>
<br>If cat racing growth will be zero or negligable.
<br>My argument and soap box is... In this 25 boat fleet we will have several levels of competition... The best Tornado sailor will be competing aginst the best formula racer (on portsmouth Is this a compromise... of course). Without competition though ...even at the Beginer level... too many racers will loose interest and drift away.
<br>
<br>The other model for fleet growth is one design. By organizational design and leadership of a dominant personality and group sociology... when one fleet becomes dominant... well pretty soon every one will then be sailing one kind of boat. Now... you have an A and B fleet)
<br>
<br>Here is the big unanswerable question... Which model works if you can't get new people into the sport.
<br>
<br>Which model works to actually get people into the sport and leads to growth when the marketplace offers many different boat choices to a consumer.
<br>
<br>See you
<br>Mark
<br><br><br>

Hello Mark,
<br>
<br>
<br>>>Well I would not write an Obituary yet. .... waiting for the factory led group to organize an F18 program.
<br>
<br>I certainly hope so. And I truelly hope that this is the reason for the fact that this foru is "slow"
<br>
<br>>>The F18 class is all about potential. The current USA mindset is the F18 will be for teams sailing close to 300 lbs looking for lighter sheet loads. (What do the Euro F18 sailors think is the optimal configuration?)
<br>
<br>
<br>They do not agree. 150 kg's (333 pounds) or slightly above is considered optimal. It is definately a good class when you're a husband and wife team but it is by no means a light crew weight class. I don't understand why the US mindset is like this, apart from maybe the fact that winds are truelly lighter there. But their seems to be different opinions about that.
<br>
<br>
<br>>>If the class can get some good sailors to move up from Hobie 16's and 18 's and some overpowered couple teams on the I20 and the N6.0 and H20 classes to move down they could achieve critical mass as a formula class (so long as they don't fracture into competing one designs at the regional level/Division level)
<br>
<br>
<br>Absolutely right.
<br>
<br>
<br>>>... racing at minimum was always viewed as faster... So.. set a low minimum to attract sailors.
<br>
<br>
<br>Okay. Personally I'm not really happy with misleading info like that but this is for others to decide.
<br>
<br>
<br>>>From my point of view .... BUT... the big BUT.. most racers ask me... is Who are you going to race against.
<br>
<br>
<br>A problem that each starting class has including the F18 and ofcourse F16's can race against F18 as well as A-cats. F18 and F16 are linked to eachother and I hope that we can grow by leaning on eachother.
<br>
<br>
<br>>>They have an even harder time envisioning a Formula 16 class taking off in the US.
<br>
<br>For the time being F16 is ahead and there is interest. But what I fear is the next thing you say.
<br>
<br>>>>Secondly, Bigger is always better to us in the US (been there... done that myself) Even non racers.... want big boats...(Mystere sold most of their boats in the US to non racers... Many of them were in way over their head when the breeze picked up... Scared Shitless. A lot of them would let the boat sit for a year or two rather then admit they made a mistake.)
<br>
<br>
<br>Ofcourse the F16 is designed around a completely different mindset. And is a contradiction at first glance. Smaller in every respect and just as fast ? It is a far more elegant in design and for a people that favour impressive and grant things this craft might indeed be something they need time to get used too.
<br>
<br>On the other hand, what is better than to sail from a underdog position (also a American favoured concept) where you have nothing to lose and everything to gain and outsail Macho Dad on a testosteron design on what he only 5 minutes ago called a "toy boat for kids"
<br>
<br>
<br>>>IMHO, the best solution will be for Formula 18 and 16 to race within a portsmouth open class. In the Mid atlantic.
<br>
<br>And that is why teh group and Kirt in particualr are working at getting a formula regatta where all US formula's are present. Lake Hartwell has been chosen by the F16's after Kirt consulted several sailors. John is even coming over from UK and 3 out of 4 F16 designs will be present.
<br>
<br>Come to think of it. who has a better race scene in the short term ? F18 or F16 HP ?
<br>
<br>
<br>By the way, we invite all nacra I-18, F18, Hobie Tigers and (modified) Nacra 5.5 and Hobie 18's to participate. I'm sure we will all sail togetherin one fleet and forget about 1 or 2 % rating differences that we have between us.
<br>
<br>Contact Kirt Simmons for more info.
<br>
<br>>>If cat racing growth will be zero or negligable.
<br>My argument and soap box is... In this 25 boat fleet we will have several levels of competition... The best Tornado sailor will be competing aginst the best formula racer (on portsmouth Is this a compromise... of course). Without competition though ...even at the Beginer level... too many racers will loose interest and drift away.
<br>
<br>Hence my, sorry, our invitation to all 18 footers near F18 ratingto enter.
<br>
<br>>>The other model for fleet growth is one design. By organizational design and leadership of a dominant personality and group sociology... when one fleet becomes dominant... well pretty soon every one will then be sailing one kind of boat. Now... you have an A and B fleet)
<br>
<br>Ahh, well it is up to the sailors and the formula classes will survice on the EU market alone.
<br>
<br>Here is the big unanswerable question... Which model works if you can't get new people into the sport.
<br>
<br>Well neither actually.
<br>
<br>>>Which model works to actually get people into the sport and leads to growth when the marketplace offers many different boat choices to a consumer.
<br>
<br>That is also easy, Formula is better in this respect than One-design.
<br>
<br>See you,
<br>
<br>Mark.
<br>
<br><br><br>

Hi Mark Barry and all -
<br>
<br> the F-18 N A web site has been up a few days with basic rules -
<br> http://www.angelfire.com/mi4/naf_18/
<br>
<br>---Tiger anyone --I-hope to borrow a boat -demo - or team up with a lightweight owner and give it a try , -sailed-raced a H-18 for a decade or so.
<br>--On the 20s -the niche or market of 20s within the larger scheme and broader perspective is open ,--should it be the same formula class ,just for larger people ,--this is a small percentage , -we have no true Formula boats in the U S execpt a few Foxes that not even H seems to be promoting .
<br>---It is a very difficult set of existing circumstances to attempt to work through and find a better broader solution .
<br> Sounds like Barry,s area Namsa -has found one design nirvana , --no one seems happy in open racing , think this has lead to the decline , --the only option is some type of very broad developemrntal rule ,-in existing modified , and developement , but there seems so much appathy due to the existing attitudes that it may take better overall racing structure in place and more spectacular -interesting events and cat designs to really get people interested and new generations involved . ---
<br> Seemes everyone young is interested in flying through the air ,--on skate boards ,-motorcycles ,-jetskis ,-bikes -etc -
<br> we need airborn catamarans -!!!!
<br> have fun - and check out the f-18 web site
<br> Carl
<br>-<br><br>

Cheech,
<br>In this way you are wrong in a way.
<br>Germany either races F18 with Tigers or Tiger One design classes. Indeed the Tigers are as big as the whole German F18 class, but with respect for the US this is to early and as in GER may cause some troubles.
<br>The F 18 was a great idea to collect the various classes that were sailing with another 5 or so boats in a race, and in the US I observe the same development as it was in Europe.
<br>
<br>I can only support your US ideas to establish a F 18 class WITH EU RULES!
<br>Otherwise you again will have different boats in too small classes which make the boats too expesive
<br>
<br>Regards
<br>
<br>Fritz<br><br>

tigers here start in open class, there aren't many around yet, and are scored twice, once for open class and also for division points.(hobie division) So whats the difference? when we get enough Tigers for their own start they'll race other f18 boats, they already race in open class and for the most part would welcome the competition. (there are always a few who don't want any other designs bla bla bla and although all those people have made excellent points (which I agree with for the most part)for that position, you can't put the water back after the dam has burst.
<br>Cheech
<br><br><br>

Cheech,
<br>F18/ Hobie Tiger in Germany.
<br>As mentioned there were some troubles.
<br>Both are parallel existing classes about 60 Tigers and 60 F 18, with the difference that you have to decide whether you want to sail and make points for F 18 or TIGER before the event.
<br>This resulted in the fact that you have either a F 18 spot or a TIGER spot.
<br>The Hobie scene in GER is very strong, knowing this the F18 tried to kind of break in (as the Hobies observed it) the Hobie scene last year in order to get more racers in the F 18. Meanwhile we have about 60 Tigers and about 60 F 18 wherefrom at least 25% are TIGERS.
<br>Because of the rules that allow to sail a big sail in TIGERS you are not allowed to sail that in the F 18 if the crew is to light. This makes it difficult racing a TIGER in F 18 for some crews.
<br>
<br>If it works in the US - you are lucky,
<br>
<br>I again can only stress the point that you are on a good way bringing up a EU rules conforming F 18.
<br>
<br>If we meet once we can talk more in detail.
<br>
<br>Fritz<br><br>

I never understood Hobie logic :
<br>
<br>>>>The Hobie scene in GER is very strong, knowing this the F18 tried to kind of break in (as the Hobies observed it) the Hobie scene last year in order to get more racers in the F 18
<br>
<br>because :
<br>
<br>First F18 is created in France around some three older designs. Then Both PC and Hobie make F18 designs fyllu optimized unde rthe rule. Hobie gets a lead in sells in Ger and stabes F18 in the back by going one design, effectively shnning other buiders out. PC tries to OPEN up the Ger scene again as intended by F18 class and now Hobie complains of "breaking in" in a high pitched voice !
<br>
<br>Can somebody explain this Hobie logic again too me ?
<br>
<br>Wouter<br><br>

U did not get my thoughts!<br><br>