OK, this weekend on Afterburner we got into a heated debate on the correct definitions of point-of-sail terms. Are terms such as reach, beam reach & broad reach always in reference to true wind or apparent wind?

My opinion:
On boats that sail at good fractions of the true wind speeds or better, to me it makes no practical sense to talk about what the true wind is doing. You set the sails & steer the boat according to the apparent wind. So, why bother with doing the mental calculations taking into account boat speed, apparent wind speed & apparent wind direction just to be able to state "I'm sailing on a broad reach to the true wind" when in fact all I need to know is the wind is striking the sails at a beam or close reach, my sail are set accordingly and my boat is going fast or faster than true wind.
My cohorts on Afterburner don't want me stating "we're on a beam reach" when the apparent wind is at 90 degrees to our heading. They want me to say "we're on a broad reach", with respect to the true wind.

Mike.

Interesting question. But I think the terms are (and have to be) in reference to the true wind, not the apparent wind.

Terms are normally in reference to true wind direction. How often do you carry a spin on a close reach (upwind)? Despite sheeting the main in tight and having the apparent wind well forward of the beam when sailing fast angles downwind (broad reach), you won't be carrying that spin when the wind strikes the boat from the same angle while going upwind.

What troubles me with all this...how can I tell with certainty what point of sail I am on with respect to the true wind at a given moment in time? On a beach cat with no electronic wind instrumentation to calculate true wind direction, I always have to guesstimate where true wind is before I can state "I'm broad or beam reaching". Furthermore, what good does it do me to know this true wind direction and "Official" point of sail...when I will still set my sails & steer my boat to apparent.

Mike.

The way I see it, the point of defining a point of sail has to do with the big picture....the boat relative to the true wind. Let's look at a Hobie tri-foiler or Windrider Rave...by Mike's definition, they are not capable of sailing downwind! They're apparent wind is always from ahead so they never beam reach or broad reach. What term do I use now to describe the direction the boat was sailing from A mark to C mark? "on the second upwind leg....".

OK, so that was a little silly but perhaps now you're thinking "well...no, Jake, you're talking about upwind and downwind and that's different". However, using terms like beam reaching and broad reaching simply define various points of sail between upwind and downwind. Just because you're carrying a "cooter valved magna flux spinnaker" and the wind is in your face doesn't change the fact that you are sailing downwind. By the same reasoning, just because the same thing happens at 90 degrees to the true wind doesn't change the fact that you are on a beam reach. If we only use these terms as it relates to apparent wind, these terms become exponentially less useful on faster boats until you're left with nothing but "upwind" to describe your point of sail. I offer the following diagram into evidence:



I would like to also offer another piece of evidence. Look at the Racing Rules of Sailing and you will find several rule references to "close hauled" ... such as (and I'm paraphrasing dramatically) a boat overtaking a boat from astern cannot force the boat past close hauled . If this term is only used as an indication of where the sails are placed (as in beam and broad reaching), and I'm the boat being overtaken and headed up, could I simply pull my sails in tight, even though I'm at 90 degrees to the wind, and hail "sorry, I'm close hauled"?

My vote also True wind not apparent.

Sure it can be difficult to guestimate but with time on your particular boat it will become much easier.

So what? why does it matter? The most important reason is anywhere on the close hauled side of a beam reach and you would feather up if the $#@& hits the fan.

But lets say you are below a beam reach at 120 degrees to the TRUE wind and a blaster puff hits, you better know you are sailing lower than a beam reach because: 1. Head up flip 2. bear away no problem

It is easy to know what to do at 45 degrees true or 135 degrees true.

But in what i call the danger zone 80-110 degrees true you better know if you are above or below a beam reach.

Sail Fast & Upright,
Mike

Points of sail must be set as to the "true" wind direction on the course. To have any arbitrary points relative to the apparent wind on any particular craft at any particular time is just unworkable as the apparent wind is different on any given class of boat compared to any other class. As the apparent wind is a vector of the true wind speed combined with the speed of the class, and as at most times most boats are travelling at different speeds relative to each other at any given times (even on the same point of sail), each boat will register a different apparent wind direction at the same time. To try to use "apparent wind" would lead to anarchy on the race course.

Have to go with Mike Williams about the importance of being able to judge true angle, as that is all important in deciding whether to head up, bear away, or hold course and sheet out in a gust that is starting to overpower the boat. For Tornado, my way to judge it is by gauging the boat's angle relative to the parallel rippling on the water caused by the true wind, and not letting your senses be dominated by the apparent feel on your skin, and the better you integrate the two inputs from eyes and skin, the easier it is to get a read on the angles during night sails.
By the way, that point of sail diagram (as do all the other ones you'll see published) misdraws the way the jib behaves getting close to run. It will never wing out to the side until you are past run and actually starting to sail by the lee, unless you're holding it out with a whisker pole. Pet peeve, as a sailing instructor I think it lures inexperienced sailors learning from those diagrams into thinking run, and not sailing by the lee (and impending jibe) when the jib wings out.

It appears that he is asking how, on a fast boat, you can tell where the true wind is coming from when your sails are trimmed for the apparent wind.

The most obvious clue I can think of is the direction of the waves.

Why do you need to know the direction of the "true" wind on a course?
You should be sailing THE COURSE and setting you sails to the apparent wind to get the best boat speed on any/all points of sail.

These terms are for describing sailing while on land or talking on the boat. The true wind direction is key in definning these terms.
when you first get out on the water in clear air you are supposed to head directly into the wind and get a compass reading of true wind. this way you can keep track of the shifts, if any, whilst sailing.
the fine points of these terms are important in setting a good race course.
in general a hobie 16 is always reaching except for d.d.w.
a fast cat in good wind nearly always has the apparent wind forward, so apparent wind couldn't possibly tell you what point of sail you are on according to the compass.

Precisely! Since you can't know for sure the true wind direction without stopping the boat or using an electronic instrument, the best you can ever do is guess its direction. I know we all do this to some extent subconsciously. I *know* by instinct that I''m heading well off true wind and how to manage the boat in gusts accordingly. I do concede that we need to all be using the same definitions to discuss points of sail and Jake's example of rule interpretations/protests is reasonable.
At the same time, however, I find if diffcult to support references to the true wind when discussing sail trim amongst the on-board crew of a moving boat. I just want to know how the wind is hitting my sail cloth, regardless of my speed through the water. If we say we're on a board reach (with reference to true wind), then I need to work out my boat speed & direction & true wind speed before I can tell if my trim/steering is correct. If on the other hand, we say board reach (reference to apparent), then I know all I need to know to adjust sails/course for max performance.

Jake's diagram of the official points of sail is overly simplified, even for boats at monohull speeds. Take for example the boat on a beam reach. Are we to assume that boat is not moving, and so has its sails set at ~45 degrees to the true wind? If it is moving, then how fast with respect to the true wind's velocity? A better depiction for high performance boats would be to show typical sail trim angles for all true wind angles...but we'd need to account for wind velocities as well.

you don't need to call you point of sail anything when you are sailing. just keep the sails trimed, or cleat them off and steer to that.

You do need to know. For example, if you are sailing upwind on a triangle course, if you just sail to the apparent wind you can end up chasing it into a big speed building, bearing away curve that keeps the tell tales flowing, but isn't doing your VMG any good. Same thing downwind ( with a spin especially) , relating to the true wind v. your speed build is key for VMG, and deciding if it's a velocity header or if you are coming up too much. For Mary, the larger waves are usually moving at an angle to the wind, I look for the tiny parallel rippling , not the waves themselves. I think it's not one or the other on the true v. apparent, but sucessfully integrating the contrasting information of the eyes and sails that keeps you on top of things.

But there are different terms to talk about in terms of air flow over the sails. THOSE terms don't care what the true wind is doing and accomplish what you are referring to. The sail is stalled, luffing, pinched....the boat is high, low, etc. We need to fall off or come up...No?