-Interesting posts this week on the old and open forums ,

NAMSA as proposed by Rick is what U S catsailing needs.Please check in there if you hav'nt already .



The Formula concepts of allowing numerous cat builders and different manufacturers to be involved ,is also in line with current thinking .



I,ve observed with great interest the U K cat co ,-which in the last year has helped unify and cordinate catsailing there ,

the benifits will be tremendous for all catsailors over the long term .



-With the goal of providing Formula racing ,-given existing conditions of boat weights and variations of design in the U S ,-BELIEVE the weight to sail area catagory solution in structuring rules is the only viable course .



The intent is to allow all cats listed on the forum previously to be able to partisipate in Formula 20 racing and allow new cat designs to develope within .



Again , if any have a viable rules proposal that can accomodate the variety of 20 ft cats in the U S ,please post ,

If you have suggestions for the weight catagories or other aspects of constructive rules structure , and intend to race Formula 20s please post



Carl Roberts

crdesignr@earthlink.net

talked at some length with the authors of the F-18 U S rules.

-they have done a very nice job ,and have numerous F-18 specific cat designs to choose from and dealer support that goes with it ,-

AGAIN -we did not create the present set of existing conditions for 20s in the U S ,-we are proposing solutions to remedy these various weights and sail areas in existing designs , often 60 LB crew weights and 20 LBs boat weight variations within the same one design .!!!



Web site =http://www.f18.nl/index.html?Frame_ClassRulesF18.html&ClassRulesF18.html



Other Formula classes use approx 20 sq ft of spin area to 30 lb different weight catagory . -with a jib increase of 6.5 sq ft .

Believe these are a good basis for weight catagory ,though we do sail mainly during summer months in predominantly lighter wind conditions, and would propose placing 6 sq ft differentials in the main in 30 lb increments of weight classification , along with a minimal 2 sq ft in the jib .

This seems to be a proven basis or starting point that may be revised in the classes future.-Will work on substantiating this in design , and refining it further as required .



Original earlier numbers were based on existing designs we wished to include , -but realize they were too far apart.



-Catagory one ,--as compared to catagory 2 Inter 20 class base model at 380 min boat weight , -av 330 crew weight ,-208 mainsail area , 53 jib ,-and 270 sq ft spin.

--Catagory one with an av boat weight or 410 and 330 av crew for a total of 740 would have 6 sq ft more in the main than the Inter base specs. -2 in the jib ,-and 20 sq ft more spin area.



-CATAGORY ONE -wgt=740 spin =290 main =214 jib =55

-CATAGORY TWO-wgt.=710 spin,=270 main= 208 jib=53

-CATAGORY #3 -wgt.=680 spin =250 main=202 jib=51





Cat #4 future -wgt 650 spin=230 main =198 jib=48



-Other rules proposed include the trade of sail area from main to jib only in equal amounts to allow sail plan variation and modification.

-All crews would be advised to target a total weight and sail area below max. allowed ,---full weights will be required rather than half as allowed per other classes as the 20s are a total weight class .



-The 18 and 16 Formula classes have exact specific definitions .



Would like to propose simplified rules in abbreviated form and allow future F-20 members to write more definiative specs , most likely evolving to a modified and developemental trophy scoring system.



-

by the look of things, carl, this f 20 thing is dead. killed off with a bunch of in fighting and un-realistic suggestions. if this is to go anywhere, you should draft a set of rules, with help from that french bastard mhb, and just put them out there. that is the only why i see any thing getting done.

Lets find out where we are here.



Carl should summarize his variable sail area to variable weight boat and crew plan.



Steve should summarize his plan.



Voters would be named via their email and tabulated by a third party.



Email the I20 and Fox sailors who raced last year and ask them which of two proposals they would like or would be willing to race under.



Email H20, P19 mX and Nacra 6.0 NA racers how many would be interested in the upgrade.



Not interested would be an acceptable vote.



Since we have enough interested sailors around the country. I bet we could get a pretty good canvas of the racers.



We should refine this idea and go do it. I will volunteer for a canvas of the CRAC fleet and the Hobie 20 fleet in the mid atlantic / Div 11 and Va beach Area.



Happy holiday's





Mark

Thanks Mr Case , and Mark ,



Taking some time to get the numbers as correct as possible before finalizing Open Formula 20 Rules.

Plan to simplify them to a large degree and encourage and allow more open modification .





-The difficulty is setting an average wind speed which effects boat performance differently in ratio ---that is the ratio may be based at an average 8 to 10 mph , but will not be as accurate at 20 , but all Formula classes use a weight to sail area factor to some extent.



-Again it is a very difficult set of existing conditions that have deteriorated over time, , EXISTING 20 DESIGNS ALL OVER THE SCALE IN WEIGHTS AND SAIL AREAS , dead boat classes ,-Hobiecentric {suggestions AGAIN } ,-believe Formula racing will revitalize the sport over time .



Many may not ,-please forgive me for attempting to understand individuals motivation in posting , some will believe manufacturers one design is the only way to race ,some think Pn rating has all the answers and ,some will post with misguided intent of trying to promote other length catagory F-racing .



-The other interesting aspect is the interest in lightweight design ,spurred on by A Class cat developement .

Ideally we would have 3 excellent UNDER 300 lb 20 ft cats active in the U S to base a class on ,--we presently do not .

This would be very simple if we did .-

As I understand Steve is working on this with a group interested in a Pro Sailing Series , but based in lightweight 22 ft designs ,-



Happy Holidays

Carl

Group,



I am working on many different proposals on a semi pro series. As to date nothing other than the corporate structure and the sponsorship dollars is solid. This corporate structure owns the NAF20 class assoc. But, it has always been my plan to roll it over to a non profit and then let it be run by the class participants. Obviously, a proseries can not be governed by the participants and has to be run like/by a business. So the series is set up as a seperate company.



As for Carls formulas I have never been a proponent of varied sail plans. However, I will withhold my two cents worth until his formulas are done.



As for sponsorship, I would be willing to help provide the class funds as long as it falls under the NAMSA umbrella.



I feel that all class assoc. should fall in line under NAMSA and then Namsa can report to USSA via MHC. The pro series will follow this line.



As for basket case -- give some positive feedback and quit bashing everything in every forum. Your negativity and sarcasm is not wanted or appreciated by the people spending their own dollars to make something positive happen. If you don't like something get active, open your wallet and try to make something happen. If you don't want to do that get to the back of the bus and shut up!



Steve

"some will believe manufacturers one design is the only way to race ,some think Pn rating has all the answers and ,"



and then you continue



"some will post with misguided intent of trying to promote other length catagory F-racing . "





$#@% carl,seems I roughed up your feathers a bit. Why can't you describe me by "some will post in favour of another F-class" ?



Thanks for the qualication "Misguided"



You're weight to sail area is doomed to fail, Carl. It has taken me some 2 years to arrive at what I got right now and I'm still improving prediction. And only recently I arrived at enough accuracy to be dependable enough to base some class rules on. You and MHB want to do it in a fraction of that time ?



Talking about misguided !



Good luck.





Wouter

i do not know what to say to you. a lot of the things you say and the way you come across, to my perspective, piss me off. you sound just like a fellow who likes to here his own voice.

now i might be wrong. you and i could meet on the water and be come fast friends, but here you piss me off.

happy hollidays.

This is exactly my point! If you don't like something then make your opinion known and be prepared to defend it. I really don't care if my opinion pisses you off! It's my opinion and I am entitled to it. But, if you present yours we can all in an adult manner debate it to see if it is the best for the sport -- which is why we are all here.



As for myself, I have been spending increasingly more time away from my family and other interests in order to bring something positive to the sport. In addition to my time I have been spending quite a few dollars in the form of software, legal advice, conference call costs, and mailings. In order to research the legalities of semi-pro racing and the effects that it would have on:

A. the olymipic racer

B. the regional competitor

C. the sailing community in general

D. sailings standing as an "amatuer" sport

E. the availability of yacht club locations

F. the official and unofficial stance of USSA

G. the availbility of new designs for professional cat racing

H. the costs of designing/building/supplying and supporting a new racing design.

I. Various other aspects of this beast.



So if you really think I just need to hear the sound of my voice get a grip. I make a better living getting paid by people who seek my advice than I do dealing with a dieing sport and people who complain rather than help.



Carl, Mark and the rest thank you for your work and conversations it is greatly appreciated.



Basket.case -- your words would be taken with some acceptance if you had the foresight to sign your posts with atleast your first name. As for being friends, maybe your right. But, even as your friend I'd tell you to be constructive even if your pissed off. As I often say "the path of least resistance is not always the best path to take."



Steve

-

Wow -

All these posts --

Happy f=##%$ Holidays AS#@%%$ ---joking -



-Sincerely -to all cat sailors ,and those kind enough to take time and efforts -hope we meet on the water or beach ,are able to sail many enjoyable events for years to come and can share to enjoyment , hopefully a beverage of choice ,and the good aspects of being alive .



-Merry Christmas & Happy Catsailing New Year



Carl

Wouter

Wouter

Steve - I for one would like to thank you for your efforts to get this class off of the ground. It is rare to find someone who is willing and able to take action to make something happen, rather than just talk about it.



I think your proposals are well thought out, and simple enough to be workable. I think it is important in this discussion for ALL of us to get behind a simple, basic set of ideas to get this thing off of the ground. A complicated scheme, while it might be more fair in theory, is going to turn people off right away. They won't even bother trying to understand it, much less believe that it is fair and equal.



I believe it will be much more productive if we can get started with an 80% solution that is accepted, rather than a 98% solution which never gets off of the ground. Once the class is started and is growing, we can refine it to address any problems which arise. Such refinements will be easier and more productive with the benefit of experience in the class once it is a reality. If we insist on getting either a perfect class or nothing, then we pretty much guarentee that we will end up with nothing.



Sail fast and have fun,

Alan Thompson

I20 - San Diego

did you not start posting on this fourm under an assumed name with some hotmail or yahoo account as the official f-20 e-mail? ploease do not bark up mu tree for posting under my boat name.

if it is so important to know who i am and what i have done for our sport, my name is keith robinson. i am the commodore of the aquatic park sailling club in toronto. i have been the shop foreman for tomcat boats for the last 2 years. before that i built boats at pdq yachts for 10 years. i built 'spirit of canada', an open 40' for the next around alone.

i do my share for our sport.

thanx