I am most disturbed by the fact that all the people who filed for redress are labeled as whiners and unsportsmanlike. We participate in a sport that is self-policing. There are no officials telling us what is legal or illegal. The only recourse we have is to file a protest against another boat or file for redress if we feel that an action of another body caused us harm and the actions did not follow the rules. Also, the argument that everyone uses about the same individuals wouldn't have filed for redress if they had done better is rediculous. Of course they wouldn't. The rules state that you are only allowed to file for redress if "... (a boat's score)has been made significantly worse by..." If the individuals did well they would have no grounds for redress. I think if you were to step back from this incdent and look at the individuals and their history both on the water and off you find that they rarely go to the protest room and that they must have felt pretty strongly about this incident to file their redress.

Hey Mark, thanks for the insight and having the cojones (sp?) to jump in to this fray. We'll see you this weekend.

I now agree with Tom.., let's have limitations.
Actually, 5 knots of wind is not much fun. Sailing in around 10 is just about perfect. No, make that 11 knots.
And then when it gets to be 15 knots, it starts getting a bit on the scary side.
In order to insure that no one gets scared.., or even capsizes, we should not start races in winds of 15 knots or more. No, make that 14 knots.
So, the RC shall not start races in winds less than 11 knots.., and shall not start races in winds over 14 knots.

But wait.., we cannot start a race in rain, lightning, or other inclement climatic situations.
Ergo, no race shall be started if there is a cloud on the horizon -- you never know when it will bulk up and throw lightning at you.., and rain.., and hail.., and squall lines.
And that phenomenon usually happens when there is a front in the area.
Therefore, no races shall be started if there is any kind of front within 200 miles.
Aw! But wait a minute. What about the sun. In order to keep sailors from getting sun damage to their skin and eyes and consequently die of cancer, we must not start any races when there is sunshine.
Therefore, no race shall be started if it is sunny.

There, that ought to cover the situation so everyone has a fair race. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I believe this is an argument form called "ridiculus ad absurdem."

Rick

Yes. That is. "ridiculus ad absurdem."

Ok, lets leave the minimum wind end for awhile. Rick, what would be a good upper limit or agreed situation for a maximum wind? US Coast Guard "Small Craft Advisory?" An open sea situation with limited rescue craft? There should be something tangible (Knot meter reading maybe?) that could be used as a guide for Race Committees? Certainly different boats will have different upper limits too, but when it gets really up there, can an RC actually think it is ok to run races? At what point does a competitor feel comfortable using his own judjment as to what is safe while not missing a start because some RC is going to start regardless of the conditions?

Any good sailor knows that it is not wind strength but sea state that makes sailing impossible. So a upper wind strength limit is just silly. Chalk it up there with any other comments coming from well meant intentions but also lack of experience.

Wouter

"Guide" for the race committee is different from making it official by putting it into the sailing instructions. For instance, in the case of maximum wind limit, 25 knots might be fine on a flat sea, but 18 knots might be too much in high, close-together chop.

And on the light side, 5 knots (or even less) with steady direction might be okay on a flat sea and no current, whereas you might need at least 8 knots if you are also dealing with chop and/or current.

I would agree that it would be helpful to race committees to have detailed, suggested guidelines to assist them in making their decisions -- but those guidelines should not be law. The final decision should be left up to the race committee, and it should not be protestable. IMHO

P.S. I see Wouter beat me to it, regarding sea state.

I agree with what Mary says! It should be up to the Race Committee! Guidelines are great! If the Race Committee decides to run a race, it is then the decision of the skipper whether or not to compete.

What is the big deal with upper/lower limits. Do not some classes have them? AC boats have an upper limit. A class has upper/lower limit...its part of the rules....

Am i wrong?

WORD!

Quite honestly, there are way too many scenarios to make anything concrete as to what an RC should and shouldn't do. That is why you want to have as experienced a PRO as you can have that has common sense.

Number of support boats, minimum wind speed, maximum wind speed, lightning, big waves, big swells, etc all in varying combinations would make the creation of concrete rules impossible.

I remember the 1995 H16 Worlds in Huatulco Mexico. One day the winds were in the 40s the seas were 10 - 12 feet. The RC boat was a Mexican Navy vessel with a 700# anchor that they could not set. Wally and I, as well as a few others, were blown over in the sheltered cove even before we got out to the ocean. Jeff Alter and Kathy Ward almost lost their lives when their boat pitched and put them and the boat into the rocks. Not a nice place to be but it was a Worlds. Needless to say, no races were run but I bet if they ever got the RC boat anchored they would have tried. It was very frightening even for us.

I do not believe there is any way to make rules that govern this type of stuff and make it pleasing to everyone.

I also believe it should not be the type of stuff that is open to redress. The conditions are the conditions. They are the same for all the competitors.

In the H20 Nationals in Lake Tahoe in 1992 Wally and I had a monster lead rounding the weather mark only to find our very own hole going to the leeward mark and we watched the entire fleet sail right on by us. Our position was definitely prejudiced. Maybe we should have asked for redress since the RC should not have put the course where that hole was.

It is our (the RC's) decision and responsibility to use common sense and make the most of what the good Lord gives us. Instead of squabbling over this stuff why don't we focus on getting more people educated on how to be a responsible RC and let them do what they volunteer to do.

Mark

I believe that Rick addressed the AC weather limits.

Problems can happen when an RC does not have the best judgment, is being pressured by sponsors, time limits etc. or just doesn't have all of the facts. Some times the RC is not as familiar with the type of boats being raced and what their capabilities are. We are not only talking the best-qualified Pro’s here. Local clubs provide some RC’s. Some kind of (maybe by class) guidelines in the rules may actually relieve an RC from some of this. We had minimums at the 16 North Americans (qualifying round) that were met, but we still didn't race because I (as beach captain) didn't feel it was safe for surf launching. It was blowing 5 knots and over on the course, but on the beach we had 4-5 foot breaking surf and 3-4 knots straight on shore. Now this...is a case where discretion was used.

As you would likely recall Mark, I also was at the Hualtuco event as the factory beach team. I warned of the approaching storm. We did get the agreement to cancel launching boats because we were having difficulties. In any case, it is up to more than the PRO to identify problems, they need to trust in their team on the water too.

Forget about the weather in Huatulco....lets talk about that pool party!!!!!
Margaritas, nudies,the waterbomb slingshot, 36 people on a Hobie 16 in the pool ahhh bliss!

I agree whole-heartedly Matt. It takes more than the experience of the PRO to make these decisions. It is a team effort and unfortunately there is the club stuff that goes on where there is not the support that is usually necessary.

There are no easy answers to this situation. Familiarity with the class is very important, I would agree. That is one of the reasons I have focused on catamaran racing since that is what I know and therefore have the best experience for judging the existing conditions.

Glad to see your interest here Matt. I have always respected your abilities, opinions and servants heart. One of my favorite quotes is from Albert Einstein:

"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."

Hope you are having a Hobie day.

Mark

Matt,

One other thing in response to, "We are not only talking the best-qualified Pro’s here. Local clubs provides some RC’s. Some kind of (maybe by class) guidelines in the rules may actually relieve an RC from some of this."

Last fall we had a new regatta run by a yacht club PRO that never ran a catamaran race before. I made myself available and sat with him on Saturday morning talking about the nuances of Hobie Cat racing. He was much abliged and ran a terrific regatta.

I know at the F18 event I polled a few of the sailors and got their opinions on setting the offset mark, did they like the offset, and even asked a few to let me know how they saw the course and any input they cared to make since I have never sailed a spin boat before and did not know their likes and dislikes.

Sometimes we, as Race Officers, have to humble ourselves and make ourselves available to be educated by the sailors themselves.

Mark

Mark,

Of course I am having a Hobie Day! Every day is a Hobie Day here at Hobie Cat.

Thanks for all of your efforts and experience as PRO! As said many times before, but never enough, volunteers and RC don't get enough thanks. I certainly know the efforts involved in running a regatta. I also hope that Tracie, the organizers, RC and sailors realize that a protest against an RC is not a statement about the sailors (on either side) the event itself, RC or PRO. It is simply an interpretation of rules that someone feels should be reviewed by a jury. I heard plenty of good things about the event back there! Other than it was HOT, HOT, HOT! Lots of good racing went on.

It has been too long Mark. Hope to see you again sometime soon.

So, At the end of the day

What should the Sailing Instructions say to avoid the protest room.

Thanks
Mark

Mark,



IMHO, nothing about wind strength. Nothing to protest or ask redress for.

At major Hobie Cat events... there is nothing in the SIs about minimum wind.

It is simply an unwritten standard that races are not run if there is less than 5 knots.

Not true Matt. The H16 SI's from Ventura have rule 11.5. The 5 knot rule. As you know, on the beach we could hear all the mark boats reporting wind readings and no race was started in less than 5 knots. All the old Si's I have also have the rule. The only different one is from the MEGA that states as I've said before. "The desicion by the RC to start or not start a race is not subject to redress." This would solve the redress question as asked above. My opinion is that there should be the 5 knot rule at 5 day events and the RC should keep readings. If that was done there would be no grounds for redress. If a couple of days go by without any sailing then amend the rule as was done by Mark.
As long as I have been reading the term "as determined by the RC" I have been wondering what that ment. This whole process may clear this up in the future. Let's not blame RC or sailors. Learn something and move on.

My bad. Guess I should actually read those things!