Two questions for anyone who's been there already. I am a rec sailor. I sail my 16 solo. I have decided to set up for raking the mast. I bought two nice new shrouds this winter and they measure around 18'11" to 19'1/4". Exact measurement doesn't matter as if pinned in bottom hole of adjusters and tensioned with jib halyard I still only measure about 4-5" difference between bow and stern measurements. Here are my two or maybe three questions:
1. Can I have a local hardware store re-crimp my shrouds if I cut the distance from the bottom to the top hole on the adjusters(Is that enough?) off of them. I don't have local sailboat shops near me. And I'd hate to buy a crimper for two crimps. I just don't know if hardware store quality crimping will keep my mast up.
2. Has anyone ever used the "On The Wire" tech tip from Roy Tally to convert stock seaway blocks to low profile blocks? If so are the 9 steps complete? Were you happy with results?
3. Does it always follow that you will have a problem with sheeting the jib if you don't compensate somehow?
Hmmm, guess that's 6 questions. But I'll bet there are a couple that I didn't even know enough to address. I have searched the forums but still have these questions. Help! Thanks, ralph

Hmmm, If you bought Hobie 16 shrouds as a replacement for a new boat ... the new shrouds should be about 2 inches shorter than the old shrouds. I could measure my shrouds if this would help you out?! The new shrouds should allow for more than a healthy mast rake even without further shortening of the shrouds. Actually you should run in to trouble with the length of the forestay (should be too short) Regarding question 1... I would not do any DIY crimping on anything that holds the mast up. Not sure if I would let the local boat shop do it ... Masts are expensive so are heads.
Question 2 ... sorry I have 6:1 Harken blocks. Question 3 ... not sure if I got that one... Do you refere to mastrake and jib cut? If this is the case ... kind of difficult... probabely means you would end up getting a new jib. Kind of difficult to compensate for the modification to the jib any other way. You might want to consider not raking to the absoulute max...

Patrick

Thanks Patrick,
I bought a new forestay at the same time and when the forestay is attached to the upper adjuster(which I also added), the mast is nearly horizontal! So that ain't it. If just one hot shot mast raker would tell me what the length of their shrouds are I would be fat. You say that you will measure yours. Did you purchase your boat with the shrouds on it? Or did you buy them from Cat Sailor like I did. By this time one might think that suggestions would be in the sales literature but I sure didn't see it in Hobie, Murrays, or online at Cat Sailor. Maybe I missed it. I will look again.
Regarding 3rd question, when you read about raking the mast it is suggested that a potential problem is that you won't be able to sheet in the jib adequately as the blocks will be up against the traveler. The problem is that it is described as "possible", so it leaves you hanging...
Thanks again, ralph

Hmmm... If you have a "new style" forestay you should not need to make additional adjustments with a chain plate or other type of adjuster ... this should only be a requirement for the guys who use the shorter "new style" shrouds in combination with the "old style" (shorter) forestay. Here a chain plate can be used to make up for the lack in length of the old forestay.
Question 3 .... The cut of a jib on a Hobie 16 was modified with introduction of the shorter shrouds (I guess in the early 90's) If you rake to an extreme (block to block while using some type of low profile mainsheet system) you will run into a problem where the clew of the "old style" jib will be relatively further down and slightly further back - causing problems sheeting in , especially when the jib traveler in all the way in. To compensate for this you could try modify some hardware -using some type of low profile block on the X bar, double pin the shackle at the clew to move the blocks closer to the jib (or even come up with some idea where the axle of the block would go threw one of the holes of the clew plate). Or you could get a new jib and a X bar with integrated traveler track ... OR… do not rake to the absolute max. You will be surprised what mast rake will do to your helm.

Patrick

I have gone through and am going through some of the things that you mention. I did replace my older generation shrouds with new that did allow for mast raking. They are shorter (don't know exactly how much). I kept the original forestay, for now, so I had to make up some length there by adding an additional adjuster plate. I also recently replaced trap wires which are shorter than the originals.

The boat sails great and seems less pitchpole prone now. The weather helm has increased significantly and it is something I need to fix or learn to enjoy the workout. I also have the issue with not being able to sheet the jib in far enough when sailing upwind. I am curious about the "seaway" block modification that you mentioned to make the lower profile. It seems like I have to sheet the jib to the max just to sail on a beam reach.

Mast rake basics:

Mast Rake is determined by shroud setting and jib halyard tension. The forestay is just for when the boat is not rigged. The forestay has to be long enough to stay slack when the mast is raked aft and jib halyard is tight. Should have a minimum slack of maybe 4" (often much more). When you sheet the main everything stretches. You want the entire rig load to stay on the wire inside the jib. If the forestay takes any load at all, the jib will not have a rigid leading edge and you will not be able to point.

The distance between the mainsheet blocks (older blocks are stacked, newer ones are "low profile and allow more rake) determines how much rake you can get on a boat. Adjust the shrouds then tension the jib halyard. Check the main sheeting. Tension the sheets as tightly as you would for that days wind speed. When fully sheeted the blocks should touch or nearly so.

If you have increased weather helm, you can re-drill the rudder blades to rake them forward (under the boat more). There are drilling descriptions on the Hobie Cat forum pages. There is a topic that handles cam, rake and alignment issues.

http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=467

If you cannot sheet the jib fully, you need to move the tack attachment point higher. If there is a luff tensioning line on the jib. Use it on the bottom and shackle the head at the top to move it even higher. You should sheet the jib so the clew blocks nearly touch the jib traveler car for the best possible. A jib that is too high pinches the air flow off up high between the main and jib.

Matt,

I always adjust the main first and if pointing up, bring it in tight with tell tails streaming back on both sides. I then tighten the jib until its tell tails are both streaming back. That is about 6" between blocks. If I pull the jib sheet tight, the lee tell tail stalls out. I keep the jib traveler all the way in. Should I travel it out some and then pull the jib tight? Should I pull the jib tight in spite of the tell tails? Where should the shackle be on the holes of the clew plate in jib? I usually use the center hole.

Howard

Sheet to the tell tails as you are doing. You can add a few leech tell tails for fine tuneing the main. There is some additional tell tail placement info in the Hobie Forum FAQ. You trim the leech tails to alternate between flowing aft and hooking to the back side. Hooked all the time is over sheeted, flowing all the time is under sheeted.

Sounds like you can move the jib tack lower. Keep moving the tack lower on the forestay adjuster till you are nearly touching the car when sheeted as hard as you would for best performance.

Clew plate adjustment changes the leech and foot shape. Lower pulls more aft and opens the leech and tightens the foot. Higher pulls more down and tightens the leech. Adjust to match the shape of the main under sail. You have to duck under the boom and look at the slot between the sails. The curves should be similar for best flow.

Guys are moving the jib cars out further in higher wind going upwind.

"Mast Rake is determined by shroud setting and jib halyard tension."
[color:"blue"]Matt, yes I understand that. However if I attach the shrouds in the lowest adjuster hole, and tighten up the jib halyard so that I have a fairly firm luff - my mast is pretty vertical [/color]
"The distance between the mainsheet blocks (older blocks are stacked, newer ones are "low profile and allow more rake) determines how much rake you can get on a boat. Adjust the shrouds then tension the jib halyard."
[color:"blue"]I feel I must be missing something here - besides having too long shrouds, even though I just bought them.[/color]
[color:"blue"]The jib sheeting info from Howard and you is also helpful, but doesn't solve my problem. I have a foot of sheet between my non low profile blocks, even when I put all 220 lbs into it. Thanks for all your feedback! [/color]

You might have some other problem. The shroud length seems ok with 18´ 11". Three sides make a triangle, check if the shrouds enter the hulls at the same position as on other cats. Check the length on the mast from bottom to the shackle where the shrouds are attached and compare with other H16. With the 18´11" shrouds you definitely should get quite some rake when using the bottom hole. My shrouds are about 1 inch longer and I use the second hole from bottom to get the "block to block" mast rake.

Maybe someone cut the mast shorter after breaking out the mast base?

The extrusion should be 18' 3 3/4 inches from the base of the extrusion (not including the base casting) to just above the mast tang. That is the cut length when installing a CompTip.

Another thought is to check the forward crossbar bend and then the height of the tramp / frame including forward crossbar over the hulls. Maybe a pylon is shoved down in a hull? Crossbar is flatter? Something that brings the mast lower than designed?

Claus and Matt, Wow, you guys are opening whole new avenues of investigation. I am on it. I met a great guy this weekend at the northeast Formula championships at the SHBCC. Can't remember his last name, but first name is Mark. I think he is a past National H16 Champ. He was serving as Race Committee Chair, Boss, or whatever, and really knew his stuff. Given my rig, he thinks I may have plenty of rake, and just have to make sure that I am measuring it properly. He described the measurement in detail so I will follow his instructions and see if I have been making much ado about nothing. This could be embarrassing But I will post the results. I will also check out the points you made. Thanks again, ralph

Ralph - you met Mark Santorelli. He posts in these forums under the name "hobiebrat1"

He use to crew with Wally Myers and they are national champs several times over.

Sent him a thank-you note - he'll really appreciate it.