Hi Folks,

I need some advice. I've been an aggressive H16 sailor for the last 6-7 years, enjoy the speed, wait for small craft warnings to go sailing, etc. Now I've upgraded to a Tornado to satisfy the need for speed. I do most of my sailing by myself.

The boat I have is in good shape - has previous Olympic team mast, nice high roached main, has spi set up but no snuffer and old-style jib.

Over the winter I've read as much as I could about rigging all my lines, reviewed nice illustrations here on Catsailor forums - F16 mainly - and others.

I am getting a better spi pole and a snuffer made and will learn to sail this beast with spi solo - the challenge is overpowering.

Problem - should I immediately upgrade to self tacking jib or leave the old set up with sheet/barberhauler. I clearly understand that the self tacker is so much easier when using the spi and when sailing up wind. My concern is this - if I'm out on a big blow day, too much wind for spi but I want to zoom around the lake, does the self tacker (with no spi) limit my off wind sailing? I've been on T's with self tackers what only have a sheet control line - the port-starboard movement of the car on the track is dependendt upon the wind. That is, there's no barberhauler-like control.

So, should I re-rig my T for the old style jib I have now - I need to redo the barberhauler system - or should I just go ahead and upgrade to the self tacker, accepting any limitations it may or may not have when sailing with just the jib and main offwind on big blow days when I can't use the spi or don't want to.

Thanks for all opinions offered and I hope we all have a great and safe sailing season

Ron

If you are overpowered, you might leave the jib at the beach.

or get a reef put in the main.

and I'd get a righting pole if you go out alone.

and a radio to call for help

Definitely get the self tacker.. makes life a lot simpler.

Oh... my... god...


You are actually planning to solo a Tornado, _AND_ are talking about sailing it solo in a big blow..
Tornado.. solo.. big-blow.. Not words I usually combine.


The Tornado is a very powerful boat. I have sailed our T solo from time to time, but I am very careful about what conditions I go out in. Mainly becouse you can only depower it so much, and you will never right it alone (without the mythical solo~right). Unless you are very heavy (110-120Kg), you will be overpowered in most conditions.


I much prefer the selftacker to the old setup. Much more userfriendly, and with a long (120cm) jib track you will be able to open the slot well enough. If you are going to solo, it is a no-brainer to go with a selftacking setup. A snuffer likewise.

Please make sure your mast is waterproof at least. And please, _please_, carry a VHF or some other means to call for help.

Thanks for your ideas guys. Don't worry though, I'm out for a good challenge but ain't stupid (ok, not that stupid).

Righting pole already attached. Made a system similar to Rick White's but, once out to the end of the pole, I can extend it another 3 ft for 11' of righting pull. It self retracts when not under pressure. I believe it should work but, for those of you wondering, I'll let you know in a couple weeks when I go out in the bay and try/practise.

Righting a cat for me - and for most of you out there - is a no brainer. If you can't right your cat, then don't go sailing.

Yes I know the Tornado is a powerful boat, that's why I bought it. Whether I can single hand a spi wtih it is still up in the air. If I can, can I do it more than 4-5 knots is yet to be determined.

I'm not one to follow the "you can't do that" line of thinking. However, safety is No. 1 and always will be. In case Mary reads this, I'm installing a mast float the first year to two (or forever). I'm interested in going fast and pushing the limit and you can't do that if you're scared of tipping or righting your boat. Tornados turtle so easily hence the need for mast float. Like Mary and other's have said in other threads, there nothing like takin' a breather when your cat tips, sitting on the lower hull while your floats does it's job of keeping your mast out of the water.

Yes, I feel the same about a float on a T - like training wheels on a Porche - but it's my a** out in the middle of the lake and I'm interested in speed and having fun and not worried about what the boys on their T's think.

Okay then, I'll upgrade to the self tacker. After much discussion with others, I'm under the impression the Holt system is the way to go.

I'll let you know how I solve the self-righting the Tornado goes. There are so many more complicated things that have been solved than figuring out how to self right a 20' cat. Come on guys. How about - "try this..." and not "you can't do it"....

Ya, I know, I may eat my words but I'll be back to admit it.... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

To conclude, the T's powerful main is more than enough to deal with off wind when sailing with just the jib up so whether I use the old system (sheet/barder) or the new self-tacker (sheet, no barber-like control to open the slot freely)I should just concentrate on the main??? That is, not a big difference between jib systems but self tacker so much easier to manage....

I carry a cell phone with me at all times for the reasons we all know.
Ron

Good to hear that you know what you are getting into.


You will be overpowered in anything but light winds, but very fast in the light stuff.
In stronger winds you will be so overpowered that you can not get the boat up to top speed.
The good thing about it is that you dont need to go on a diet, every added cheeseburger will make you go faster. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Downwind you will have enough to handle with the main in your hand and the jib sheet+traveller eased. If you decide to hoist the spi downwind, you might consider installing a bungee to hold your rudders straight while you sheet the spi doublehanded until you have it trimmed.

If you go with a ronstan track.. You can extend it a bit beyond the optimal 50 cm from the midline position. insert a pin in track to stop the car at 50 mm. When you are overpowered. pull the pin and let the jib car go outboard a bit.

If you start out over powered you can also change the sheeting point on the jib clew using the several holes rovideed in the clew board.

You can twist the jib off this way.

If you bury you jib sheets into the front beam... make sure you give yourself enough of a tail in there so that you can pull them out and to the back of the boat if needed... It won't be an option to go forward to the front beam and trim them in a blow down wind.

Mark


The tough part to singlehanding the T is the chute is Really powerful.... at 8 to 9 knotts... Its all you can do to hang on to it with one arm. Constant trimming ... leads to short sails!

You should be able to solo up to 10 knots of wind with the jib, and 15 without the jib. I used to do it all the time on my Nacra 6.0na, which is also a _very_ powerful boat. I would also use the spin up to 5 knots of wind. But over 15..I wouldn't try it.

well, more power to you I guess. I wouldn't want to sail my 6.0 solo.. let alone with a spin.
good luck

Hi, I can't answer your jib question since I haven't upgraded from the old rig (yet), but I have single handed quite a bit and it's amazing how little wind it takes to overpower me (165 lbs). This, of course, is what makes it fun. If you're going to fly the spinnaker, I would think that it will only be in very light air. One of the reasons I haven't bothered updating the rig is that I really haven't felt the need to given the amount of solo sailing I do. Oh, and I can't right the boat solo so I pre-arrange rescue prior to going out. Please post your results when you attempt solo righting; if it works, it would be worth looking into. Good luck and good wind.

Al

Thanks for all your comments. Getting my trampoline back Tuesday and will install and try my solo righting "extenda-pole" soon there after. Assuming it works, I'll post a photo of how I rigged it up so others can try this too.

Im new to the forum and sail a stingray with small kids that cant help me right the boat which I just manage to do and I cant believe what I just read

Hello,
the tornado is not a super powerful boat in it's original configuration. it's efficient. it was designed for sailing in the north sea.-high winds- at the old 235 sq.ft. of sail area it has much less sail area than similar boats from recent times.
Also it is ten feet wide so there is greater righting moment. also it was designed as a single trap boat.
from my experience of solo sailing in strong winds, i would advise a roller furling jib. then you don't need to convert to the self tacking model, and the boat should sail fine on a solo as a unirig. i started sailing tornados in '68 so i do have some knowledge on this subject.

Hello as a novice stingray sailor who has not stayed on the beach on race day I am interested in self furlers, self tacking jibs to take the pressure of my young crew on race day would anybody have the time to throw some tips at me with pros,cons,brands thanks in advance regards

Not being familiar with the sting ray this post may be completely useless to you…

One disadvantage to the self tacking jib are that if you need to back the jib to get around in a tack you must hold the jib on the old side or it will just switch sides. This is solved by boats with daggerboards and centerboards that tack much like monohulls. Unlike long asymmetrical hulled boats, which may need the back in a chop.

Another disadvantage to the self tacking jib is the jib cannot overlap past the mast, because the track must be in front of the mast. Many catamaran jib sails over lap and must be modified or a new sail must be created.

As far as furling jib. If your jib has battens you must either have a hollow leach sail built with no battens or you must angle your battens parallel to the forestay.

I just outlined some concerns, but they are both awesome features that I would want.

Thanks Matt youve given me a start on this. The stingray Jib doesnt overlap the mast and there are no battens. When I tack I have to keep the jib on the wrong side a little longer to ensure that I complete the turn. I have barber haulers, do you think I could control the self tack with the barber haulers or would that just negate the whole system would you have some photos,diagrammes or links that I could have a look at, I really appreciate your help as the old girl is completely stripped at the moment getting wessystems two pack over the deck and complete reseal of all fittings. I kept a couple of A classes at bay this year but they are getting better and in heavy weather if I can sail solo with a dry hull I'll definately get them.