Yeah, the Hobie 18SX number looks odd. Note that in Beaufort 4 it is actually rated slower than the TheMightyHobie18/18 Magnum. Maybe the 18SX is a dog, maybe nobody good sails it.

Every now and then I have to score weird boats. In my experiance they're always casual racers and get smoked by the serious sailors, so I try not to get my undies in a twist about their numbers. Your milage may vary.

It's not the number itself, but the way the whole system is supposed to work that is being treated unfairly.

Look at it this way. If you were entering data into an algorithm, and you entered data that was incorrect, eventually the outcome gets skewed.

Now if this boat, which is NOT an SX, gets rated as such and its finishes get entered into Darline's calculations, well, eventually either the SX or the base 18 is going to get its Portsmouth number calculated incorrectly.

People complain about the Portsmouth handicaps, yes? Not necessarily you, Jake, I don't know your opinion. But if incorrect data, or improperly utilized Portsmouth numbers or adjustments gets used, and then reported, and eventually taken into consideration into the yearly calc of the Ports no's... the wheel keeps on rollin' and it's garbage in, garbage out...

So, yes, it is about fairness to the competitors, but it's also about fairness to the SYSTEM.

See where I'm coming from?

sea ya
tami

Ok, heres what I understand. Its an 18 magnum so start with 71.4, its got a non-class legal mainsail of greater size .980 penalty, a mast thats taller than standard .995 penalty and a spinnaker .960 penalty. So the correct number is 68.5? Will not race with the wings so no hit there?

You wouldn't take a hit for wings in any case, because the 18 Magnum, which is an 18 with wings, is rated the same as the regular 18.

But yes, I think the oversize main, taller stick, and chute hits sound fair to me. Now be sure to be nice enough to calculate all the wind corrections if you're racing triangles...

and do ask the RC to report their data to Darline. Good luck with your racing

sea ya
tami

I'd start by saying the SX ratings seem out of whack - looking back to the 2004 numbers they seem a little more reasonable. A question to Darline may clear that up.

As for how to score and what's fair, I think you will find differences among people who do committee.

Here's my take (as former 18 driver and weekly scoring dude for our Fleet):

As for the boat - if the stick on the boat is a Hobie SX stick, I'd say you can start with an SX rating. The rig and spin is the only difference between a magnum and an SX. The wings are the only difference between an 18 and a Magnum. If the stick is some mast you found that just happens to be the same length, I'd start you from the magnum rating.

If your spin rig is not stock SX, then take a mod hit for the major parts non-stock - ie one for the sail, one for the pole. Got a snuffer? Hit. Take a bonus for the smaller jib, take a hit for the non-stock main. Somebody could quibble if you have the old style wings versus the new style wings, I wouldn't.

I don't believe it's necessary for you start with the boat as came from the factory for the base config for all cases.

F-27 example - there was the "stock" 27 config, then people added the square tops, bigger jibs, transom extension/swim platform and asymetrical head sails, and the F-27 Formula was born. Later boats from the factory came that way (minus the platform). Earlier Boats with those mods simply sail as the Formula, not as F-27s with all the mods as factors, unless those mods don't measure in to the Formula parameters/measurements.

My $0.02...

I may be wrong, but I thought the wings on the SX were different from the ones on the Magnum. I thought they were longer on the SX, to provide for more fore-and-aft crew weight movement.

You create a serious "rule beater" by applying the handicap this way. Realistically, this boat should only be a little slower than an F18 and it's rating should reflect that. By applying the rule as you have, you've given this boat a barely sub 70 rating while an F18 is 62.5. This boat would be impossible to beat under handicap by anything with a realistic rating. Even adding the full extent of mods to the regular Hobie 18 rating still looks a little soft but is certainly closer.

Yes, the wing style did change. I believe that when those wings came out they used them on both the SX and Magnum. If I remember right the new ones were based on parts from the 21 wings.

But, the reason I wouldn't bother with rating them differently is that the wings don't seem to add anything to the performance of the boats.

Jake sez:
"You create a serious "rule beater" by applying the handicap this way. Realistically, this boat should only be a little slower than an F18 and it's rating should reflect that. By applying the rule as you have, you've given this boat a barely sub 70 rating while an F18 is 62.5. This boat would be impossible to beat under handicap by anything with a realistic rating. Even adding the full extent of mods to the regular Hobie 18 rating still looks a little soft but is certainly closer."

______________

I'm OSYC's PSVB (scorer) and I'd have to agree with Jake here. I don't think anyone is taking hull weights into account, though.

I should think that the 18/Magnum rating is pretty well established since the 'original' 18 has been around for some time. The 18sx is much newer, and fewer of them around, so I'd be disinclined to trust the number as compared to the stock 18 rating.

The 18SX, being a newer boat, prolly has much lighter hulls, too, and of course weight is a big factor.

As far as I'm concerned, I believe that the -platform- is what the boat is, not its -rig-. Using Keith's logic, one could take a set of NACRA 5.5 hulls and add a Hobie 18SX rig and take the SX rating. Now wouldn't THAT be a rule beater?

What is definitely apparent from this debate is that the Ports. ratings are being applied in quite a subjective way, but then so is PHRF, but that's another argument. ;-)

And Keith, about my F27GS? I start with the Formula rating, and take hits for bigger sails, rotating mast, taller stick, lightened/reshaped hulls, and modified rudder, I guess. I haven't worked out Ports. yet, oi...

sea ya
tami

I can say that I honestly believe from experience that a Hobie-18 rigged this way will not be even close to the rated speed of an F-18.

I also still say that the current SX rating looks out of whack given what the rating was in 2004. So maybe a more realistic rating can be acheived the other way, but I don't necessarily agree with the logic.

I know some folks that sailed the SX and the only comments I've heard about the boat is that it never lived up to its promise.

Given the weight of the boat, the windage and weight of the wings, the hull shape, the boards, etc. Then take that the main he's using is not bigger than the SX main, and the jib being used is smaller. One speed limiter I always found on the 18 was the low freeboard to the hulls and the hull/deck lip getting in the waves. The F-18 boats have a better hull configuration, more efficient boards, lighter weight, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I loved my 18, and the with the spin it was fun. But I don't think you'll get it that fast without more mods than listed here.

Geeze - how heavy is a Hobie 18? I thought it was just over 400lbs.

That's about right. Some seemed to push 450 without wings (mine seemed to). Add around 40 or so for the wings.

I thought that's more than an F18 - I know they're no A-Cat but I didn't think they're 400lbs. If so I'll stand somewhat corrected on that point.

I really hope US sailing is not using numbers from boats like this in their Portsmouth calculations - if they are it's a wonder the numbers are as good as they are. Boats with any modifications let alone two shouldn't be used in calculating the base numbers, only used for evaluating the modification factors.

For example, last race I was at there was a Prindle 18-2 that was cut down to 16' and sailed with Prindle 16 rig. It was very slow (slower than the Prindle 16s) but was given the same number as an 18-2. If US sailing uses those results that will bring the 18-2 number up, which would be silly. Better to just ignore that result together (and yes, the score keeper noted what was up with that boat in the results he submitted to Darlene).

Anyway, it is important to me to be nice to the newcomers and not piss them off by giving them a number that the boat can't sail to. Maybe the rest of you have enough people showing up at your regattas that you can afford to do that.

Except for classes that have been actively raced for many years, "fairness" and "portsmouth" are mutually exclusive anyway. The F16's legitimate portsmouth number gives me far more heartache than any modified/homebuilt boat ever did.

The boat was weighed last year with wings on, 28' mast and dacron sails at 438lbs. 28' mast is solid, 29'6 has comptip. What about downhaul ( 8:1 ) and mainsheet ( 8:1 ), aren't these allowable now? No hits? Also according to Hobie the Tiger main is larger than a SX main. I'm a crappy racer and don't expect to surprise anyone. Just trying to represent the boat properly

Yours is lighter than mine was for sure....

If the Tiger main is bigger than the SX main than take that hit either way you baseline it.

I remember there was an upgrade allowed on the downhaul, don't recall if there is on the mainsheet. If not specifically allowed in the rules, then not legal and you would most likely take a hit.

HCANA rules are 8:1 downhaul, 7:1 main blocks.

I'll agree you're closer to being an SX than a stock 18.

I've never heard of anybody taking a hit for non-class legal control systems in a Portsmouth handicap race, but maybe the regattas I go to aren't that serious.

The downhaul and mainsheet upgrades may also be assumed in the main sail adjustment.

Just talk it over with the RC and then go out and have fun. The RC ought to be happy to have an extra participant, and will need to decide for themselves how to go about rating you.

If you've never raced before then I really doubt you'll be a threat to anybody who takes these things seriously, regardless of whether your D-PN is 70 or 60. If after a few races you start to get close to the serious racers, then re-evaluate.

F18 minimum weight is 396lbs for the boat.

Is it about what configuration it's closer to or what number is fair? Being that a competition handicap system is to try and make competition "fair", it should be the latter. You are basically giving the boat a free spinnaker power-up by using the SX rating.

In light stuff, a well sailed Hobie 18 can keep pace upwind with F18s and the below the waterline shape is similar to the Tiger but with much fatter boards. I haven't sailed along side a TheMightyHobie18 in anything else yet.

Whoa!! I just checked the tables again and didn't realize it was 18SX with spi

My statment was predicated on there is no difference in the boats when "spi-less", other than the standing rigging/sail plan, hulls and frame are identical.

We've kept pace with (and passed) H20's upwind (combined start)...at the weather mark they left us like beached whales. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />