Keep the comments coming guys, we ARE listening!

What we propose is to review ALL comments during Oct/Nov and then put up a series of short polls. By the end of January 07, we'll put up a definitive programme for the F16 Global Challenge 2007. This will be based on YOUR feedback.

There's been a fair amount of chat about the racing side of a championship and, I agree, that's very important. we've had a little bit of chat about free days/evenings - but what are people's views on the entertainment/seminar side of things?

Are you all Karaoke Kings? BBQ addicts? Disco Divas?

Are you a total sucker for the detail of sail design? hull trim? foil shapes?

Do you have a particular 'hero' you want to hear/meet?

Or do you just want to get p***ed every evening? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

At Pajuelin regatta, held last week in Benidorm (spain) we had a Tacticat soiree.

It allowed sailors who couldnt attend to share some of the fun of the meeting, from australia europe and america.
It provided some exposure world-wide and made an entertaining night.
We had big screens to show the race to people who sails other boats or no boat at all. We even had a trophy and a combined-classification for those also sailing for real...

Problem is you are talking about next summer. That's very long term for tacticat future. But it Tacticat is still there you can count it (if you want... of course)

Amando.

That would be a brilliant idea Amando - especially if combined with an extended 'Happy Hour' <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hi John,

Can I just mention making the most out of one set of results; there is usually lots of data to be mined but most clubs/events don't take advantage of it.

If you take elapsed times (or start/finish times), competitors can reflect if that one bad tack might have made a difference and it also allows you to score without and with single-handed/double-handed handicaps (the latter just for 'fun'). Taking elapsed times also facilitates including/excluding other classes in the results that may have started later but sailed the same course; like we did with the As when you sailed at Mumbles.

It's also fun to score the event (and give token prizes) based on club, age-group (how about introducing a 'Masters' category) and platform (Stealth/Blade etc) - adds extra dimension and mini-competitions to the main event in such a way that everybody is included to a greater degree and provides good bar banter. Most scoring software will do all this with minimum hassle; almost every competitor can be winning in some way or another.

At formula events like F16/F18 I personally think it's interesting to get the competitors to include platform, spar, foil and sail manufacturer etc when registering and include them in the published results.

Amando, you know what would be really nice to have.

A program that can read plan txt gps files and make an animation that shows the individual boats move in a sped up play back of the race.

This play-back would be an enormous benefit in the evenings to evaluate the tactical moves made and it will very clearly show the errors and where a crew won or lost it.

The data gethering part is not difficult at all. Several of us have been doing that for years now. Sadly we can only animate one boat at the time in the software we have. And its presentation is a little bit to vague to be easily interpreted.

Would it be possible to use your tacticat interface to animate these GPS tracks ? Afterall the tracks themselfs are just basic coordinates which can be transformed into any form desired. Carthesic, Polar, custom grid, geographical grid. You name it. Hell I can even program stuff like that what I can't do is program the display interface.

Would that be difficult do you think ?

Wouter

That is not related with this thread, but you asked for it….

The issues:
· The boats data has to be complete. If there are missing boats you lose critical info. All boats should carry a GPS.
· The data has to be coherent. I’m not sure if different GPS makes or models are able to store the log data with the same accuracy. It is sure that different models will use different algorithms to extrapolate or to log dynamically.
· Origin data. I assume time is sychronized on all GPS units, not sure the same can be said for x and y coordinates.
· Extra data is needed. GPS reading for all marks, pin and RC boat. GPS reading of Start time.

So,
Let’s assume we have all data. The data is complete and coherent and we have some means to aggregate it (that seems easy). We do have a file with a lot of lines each one with: timestamp, boat_id, x-coord, y-coord, vx-coord, vy-coord

Tacticat server or client would read the data and will run a clock for regatta-time. At every timestamp the boat_id would be placed at (x,y) coordinates and would be given (vx,vy) speed. While no other record is reached, Tacticat simulator would advance the boat at the pre-assigned speed.

So far, so good.

Only problem: how to paint the boat… we know the location. The problem is with the orientation, GPS info gives no clue how the boat is oriented. We can assume that is oriented like its speed but that would produce funny results when the boat stops or go backwards.

A guestimate of cost (assuming the data is OK and accepting the previos remark about orientation): 8 programming hours, 4 for test and 4 more for packaging and webalizing.

A nice extra…. Data can be feed on-line, if GPS unit can rely the data to a ground station… : Live feed to Intenet of a running real regatta. And that for free. (I’m not counting the hardware and integration costs for a on-board GPS and signal unit).


Bottom line conclusion:
None from my side.

If orientation/heading of the boat is an issue, how about setting it as a constant to 0deg? After all, it is the tracks which relate the real information.

You estimate 16 hours of development time (which sounds very reasonable to me, as a former programmer), what do you charge pr. hour? This is a function that would be useful at other timesthan just the coming event.

How would you build the interface allowing for upload of all these files?

Watch a Tacticat race and you'll understand, we're talking show-business here. We would want the ability to see the cat, not a dot. How it tacks, how is oriented in pre-start...


I think it is not relevant. The estimate makes assumptions that, I'm afraid, are difficult to validate. Validation would cost much more than the actual coding. We're in the same spot we were when designing Tacticat: the code is easy, cheap. The difficult thing is to know what to do to get something that can be used and enjoyed.



Where to upload? You mean internet server?. Current tacticat users have in their own computers a client application that 'uploads' boats status or commands. Users give commands for tack, for gybe,... the same interface would be used to upload location/speed info.

Like you said, the resolution between different GPS units will vary so the result will be poor or even outright confusing. What is interesting (and possible to show) is how the boats move in relation to each other.




I was thinking that this could be used as a tool to run trough races in plenum on a large screen. Starting e.g. 10-20 sessions of tacticat on the same computer would be cumbersome?

Can I get this thread back on track please guys? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Interesting as your virtual race replay discussion is - go and play in you own BL**DY thread!!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /><img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sorry..

I am looking at options for organizing a compliant boat and showing up for this.. I think experts running tuning/speed sessions and a de-briefing of the racing on a large screen would be excellent. Having pictures of the days racing on the same large screen in the beer tent tends to take care of the entertainment <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Here I give my experience.

Maybe we can get somewhere.



Personally I don't see the fact that some boats sail without a GPS receiver as a problem worth considering. GPS loggers are become more and more available and even for rather low costs due to GPS route planners. My GPS logger stores 10.000 data points and costed 150 Euro's some 3 years ago. Past season we used several of these during club races. The hardware is not the real problem. And I would accept a good numbers of GPS carrying boats as acceptable. I think all F16 sailors in NL have a personal GPS logger already.

What I'm saying here is that this is not a technical problem.





Our experience is that the accuracy of a GPS logger on the water is typically 3 to 9 meters. Most loggers can log once a second. That is very accurate when measured on the overall size of the course. It is quite easy to see the windshifts etc in the tracks. Again, this is the result using 100-150 Euro GPS loggers.

The data itself can and should be pre-processed by a different application before it is fed into a viewer. Even I can program that. In this pre-processing an intepolation routine can be used to bridge gaps or even correct for reduced accuracy. Again I got the skills to do that; had been doing that in my previous job. My skills however are lacking in the display field.

Logger do sometimes miss a few logging instances but even extremely simple lineair intepolation routines work rather well here.






The GPS can not function without a universally synchronized clock. Hence the clocks of the individual clocks are automatically synchronized with a the satelites themselfs. Of course the coordinates are calibrated as well otherwise the GPS would not be a GPS (Global positioning system).

From experience I can tell you that two boats 10 meters apart will show themselfs exactly like that in the tracks. Therefor these points are not an issue.





The boat we'll be using for the racing has a build in GPS navigator. Shouldn't be to hard to store waypoints for these items.

In the past I just loaded all the tracks of individual boats into one view and the location of the marks and line is rather visible by the shape of the tracks. The last may not be most accurate but it did work rather well.

It is surprising how much can be learned from the tracks alone. All these things can be done in the pre-processing phase even logging by the committee boat fails. A little human inspection of the tracks can go a long way. It really helps that this is not real time.







You are correct in principe, but not really in practice. This viewing of GPS data will be in playback mode and not real time mode. So the direction of the boats can be found by looking at the next waypoint (or even more future way points). If future waypoints are inconclusive then look at a few past waypoints.At the time of plotting all waypoints of the entire race are known. This info can feed a simple routine that determines direction. But I think it to be better to have the pre-processing phase do these actions and just expand the data with direction info. That makes displaying both easier and faster.

Can this go wrong in some instances ? Probably, but if these are limited in number than that is quite acceptable. Further more I'm thinking about a simple routine that keeps boats always pointing "upwind" on a upwind leg and on downwind legs you don't have this problem of sailing backwards.





When I programmed I always multiplied my best guess by 3. But then again I'm not a fast programmer.





That is much more difficult ! And way beyond anything I would consider building or asking anybody to build.





Well, I'm not saying we have a big budget but I'm not saying it must be for free either.


I feel confident that I can get the data file right by pre-prosessing raw GPS logger data. Including the marks and start-line and the direction of the boats travelling.

The only question I have is whether multiple tracks can be easily displayed using a program like Tacticat. And if so; whether the amount of effort required would make it too expensive or otherwise impossible.


You may have guessed by now that this is not an idea that just popped up in my head. I actually did work on it occasionally over the past years but I always hung up on the graphical display part. I can program processing routines and such but graphical user interfaces is really not my sport.


Also before I let anybody do any interface work, I (or a few of us) will first proof the pre-processing part by actually doing it.

Wouter

This is what I enjoy about short close racing (see Attachment)

Let's get this thread on is original track.

Apart from providing some Tacticat activiy during the regatta days we, at tacticat, have another possibility. It's being planned for other events so why not this one?:

We are to schedule a weekly event. Times and dates aimed to the potential real regatta attendance. The weekly event will have a name, an image, an info and a trophy that is related to the real event (some months in the future).

If you are interested just let me know. The model is still to be completely defined but the idea is to keep during some time the attention on a future event.

Amando.

And, please, for all GPS, playback, etcetera, I'd gladly discuss it in the technical forum at tacticat. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

It isn't likely I would attend for one regatta. If I could arrange a 7-10 day package, including two regattas; then that is a different matter all together!

I'd like to see some hard numbers regarding costs.

Pete,

If you want two regattas from the one trip then Zandvoort '07 is for you!!

F16 Global Challenge Aug 11th - 17th
Zandvoort REM Meeting Aug 18th/19th (100+ boats)

Go book your trip right now! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anyone else interested from the U.S.? We've been through the container "thing" before. Wanna try again?

Anybody wanna buy my boat- fob Zandvoort?

BBQs yes. It takes a *lot* of alcohol before I'll consider singing or dancing (this is for the good of all concerned, trust me). Experiments in the past have shown that I usually pass out before either of the above will happen <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



Personally, I have more interest in how to make what I've got go faster, than what designs are fast, so in that respect I'd rather hear from successful sailors than successful designers/builders.

For the record, I'm with Mark on the "more shorter races" thing. Also I think it's quantity and quality of sailing that will attract people from further afield (as Pete points out). I know that when Singapore was being considered, quantity of sailing was a big consideration for me. It needs to be worth shipping a boat for.

Paul

John,
Do you have the dates of the Westland Cup?
That was a fun regatta.
Can't beat an open fire, a bar, a band and lounge chairs to relax in all together on the sand.

If not, maybe Wouter or Hans could advise.

Regards,
Phill

Seriously guys, I am interested. But I am not overly excited about shipping my boat. So this brings back my question.

Will there be any available boats for charter? I am too heavy to crew 185lbs so I would rather drive, uni or sloop (with light weight crew).

Another question that comes to mind is, how will the weather be? is it cold? will we need some foul weather gear in order to sail comfortably?