I thought I read somewhere that Nacra started shipping our main to Europe?

Only the shape.

Now the I-20 One-design sailors are overpowered here as well.

Now I haven't been too much on top of this but my impression is that the EU I-20 sailors with the US mainsail design aren't that much faster. The F18's are still giving it to them.

Wouter

In Europe, all the good sailors are on F18s.

Really??? nobody good sails an I20 on the whole continent of Europe... I did not know that.

I did not know that you raced in Europe to have first hand knowledge. ... Heck... I did not know that you read enough foreign languages to study regatta results to even form an opinion... Wow... If I did not know better... I would have thought you pulled this opinion out of your butt!

So no good Tornado, 18HT, A-Cat or Spitfire sailors in Europe - they are all on F18s?

Fine, you guys want to play semantics, thats ok with me.

A quick survey of the Texel results show an over-abundance of F18's in the top 20 compared to any other class. Not a single N20 to be seen in the top 20. One Tornado.

If there are N20's sailors competing in Europe at the top level, they aren't making as much noise as the F18's.

Really, you all can stop acting like you're the smartest people in the room.

Wouldnt a flatter shape make the i20 faster upwind? The reply's all seem to indicate the i20 main is too full and overpowered. Somebody willing to spend $1500 to try?

Is the mast bendy enough to allow the sail to flatten all the way?

The i20 feels sticky upwind to me and this is with a brand new main. Downwind it feels much better.

Bill

Well thats how you depower it when its honking - flatten it out. Rarely do I get the feeling that we're overpowered downwind, its usually upwind and jib reaching that you're fighting to keep her pointy end up.

You're out of line here - one of the top US N20 teams (Alex and Nigel) were at Texel this year on a 20 and its an easy guess that there are some very talented N20 sailors in Europe. I really don't see what this has to do with anything anyway.

You want to make a N20 faster? Why? The way I see it, it's probably the fastest thing (outside a Tornado) off the beach in anything under 15. If you try to affect the speed of the boat in the higher wind speeds...when the F18's start to show an upper hand...you stand a good chance of loosing that ability to sail fast when it's light.

As far as the mast being bendy enough to flatten the main, I think it's MUCH bendier than the current F18 masts and flattens it like a board. I do agree, however, that it's a very full main - but this is probably part of the reason the boat is so favorable to distance racing with the spinnaker.

In my moderatly experienced opinion, if you want to go slow with the F18s in the light stuff and go faster in the heavy, I think the mast needs to get a little shorter in addition to flattening the main but I wouldn't agree with such a change.

Yes, the sail shape could be played with, it's not perfect by far, but the platform friggin hauls butt in all conditions. The beauty is learning how to make the OD go faster than the next guy. The boat is a handful in the breeze, but that's what makes it fun! If you want less power go F18. Believe me, I'm not knocking the F18. I think the Infusion rocks. The N20 just has the Holy *noodle* factor that is just plain fun. Even though it's so powered up you can push it, and the boat just begs for more.

I found a good upwind shot during the W1000 in '01 I think.

This thread has been veered way off course.

I like the "holy *noodle* factor" as much as the next guy, but I don't like the "head to the beach if its 15+"

Do you think allowing a sail rule like the F18 with regards to crew weight would be feasible?

Say what? Go to the beach in 15+? Surely the N20 isn't an Isotope, ehh? (no offense Isotopers) The best times to sail are when it is 15+, because that is when you can really push the boat and see what she's made of.

I would like to see it opened up to any sailmaker that could build the sails to class specs. In the Thistle Class, you could buy your sails from anyone. The sailmaker would get the dimensions that they had to meet from the Class Association by paying a royalty to the Association.

BTW, how come my old spinns easily fit, some room to spare, from mast to the snuffer head and my new spin just barely fits. Is this a lack of control or an optimization within measuring limits? Hmmm? You couldn’t determine my new spin to not be class legal could you? After all it is from the required sailmaker, isn’t that all that’s required.

BTW, BTW I don’t what to see us go the way the 6.0s went.

Err.. perhaps your old spis has stretched <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Rolf,

Maybe and probably, but that doesn't help my argument:)

Mark,

What kind of love am I feeling from Nacra now? Is it the $60 I paid for the two or three jib battens? Lost the Jib battens on the first day of the c100, while your boat Mark was being wrecked by its tow'er, because the sailmaker chose to make a batten closure flap that secures with Velcro instead of a couple of grommets allowing them to be tied in. My experience with the sailmaker that I would like to use and probable will, has been that he wouldn't have used that detail and if he did, he would have replaced my battens and changed the system at his cost.

Since I'm new to this boat and class maybe someone could explain all the benefits that Nacra provides to the class?

Think Hobie Fox. Probably one of the reasons that boat failed here.... well, that and the comp tip. Why go buy a boat that costs more than an I-20, with smaller sails so you can go slower than your buddies?

Had that rig been presented to the US better (straight stick w/I20 sized sails) I think the US F20 "might" have gotten off the ground. The time was also better then b/c F18 had not really started here.

Probably what will happen is a "HT" F20 type of class will get started. Between the M20, the CFR and the Eagle... you never know....

2c's

Love from NACRA... NADA..... (maybe you can get some winch grease to ease your pain)


You need to feel the love from the east coast nacra 20's who don't plan on going to Nacra sponsored nationals but want to race with better equipment… or at least don’t mind your using a new set of sails that “measure in”.

Find those guys... get 5 sets of Nacra sails measured... (Wonder how in the world they can be so different.) Figure out what the proper measurement should be, write them down, have Tony measure your masts and go get some decent sails for ¾ of the money. Publish how they are measured and copy the Tornado/F18 restrictions on sail material and measurement (no cuben fiber sails) so others can replicate the sail specs, While you are at it, spec a rule which keeps all of the other major hardware parts the same… eg rudders, boards and presto you are in love with 20 other Nacra 20* guys. You might even restrict class members to one set of sails a year… that way you won’t have an arms race. Some kind of measurement service might be needed… Probably cost you 20 per sail to get it measured by a qualified sail maker. Probably have to change the logo on the sail and perhaps the name to avoid copyright infringement though! (Sort of like Hobie not allowing you to call it a Hobie regatta if you allow open boats to race)

NOW... which class do you race in?
Your new sails measure the same as the Nacra sails but you are not class legal by NACRA's definition. So how about Open Chesapeake 20c… or the Annapolis 20c!

So…. Is there a problem with racing this new configuration?…. Well.. clubs accept a sanctioned class to race… Usually the regional sailing authority has some way to sanction the class. Since there is no Nacra 20 class now registered with any regional sailing authority in the country (to my knowledge)… why not create the new open minded class which allows both the old school and new school boats…

Jump through those hoops. You are then racing in a class…. But you are not going to performance nationals with this rig.!

What about Portsmouth, Well, on the bay, the sanctioned class is Beach Cats which uses Portsmouth rules for class designations. So, you need to jump through the Portsmouth class rule hoop.

To be legit. I would take those measurement rules, the names of the 20 guys who sign up.. send them to Darline and request a provisional rating identical to the Nacra 20 for the class... Open 20. Race 3 open regattas with other boats, send in the results and you have your 15 data points and you are street legal for the alter qualifier anywhere in the country.

Since we have ONE and ONLY one CFR20 racing in the world and eligible for the Alter qualifier, the precedent has been set!… You actually don’t even need to find the 20 other guys… Just do it, file the paperwork and you are on the ground floor of a sensible class rule for nacra 20’s….. Now… if you are the only one who does this… and you suck… your new rating will slowly drop because it is essentially your personal handicap rating… eventually … you should win half the time against your personal rating. If you are good… at least sailed to the original Nacra 20 rating and the sails are noticeably faster….. you should win immediately until the next year when your rating is adjusted and then because its still your personal handicap.. you should be able to match it about 50 percent of the time and win some more.

You may not be able to stay at the bar for too long though (ref Constantine)… Since this kind of sucks… its best to get the 20 guys to play ball with you. Now… its highly unlikely that you get big differences in performance… You probably get a well behaved sail that if you use it properly will behave for you. You might be faster or the same as the neighbor with a new set of performance sails…. Who knows… your challenge might get the pot stirred to the point that nacra pays to have the sails upgraded and conform to a standard.

Point one - for us, an arms race is when somebody replaces their sails once every five years! May need to change that rule...

Point two - it's a well known fact that simply having the Racer X logo on a sail will get you at least 3-5 kts boat speed advantage!

Other than that, Mark, I think you sum it up about right.

Some Fox sailors overhere are now sailing with the new Nacra 20 mainsails (or custom sails with similar dimensions) which seems to make it at least as, if not more, competitive than the N20s.

W,


What do you mean by shape? Luff length, foot length, sq top length, draft location and depth, and luff curve?

What were the original differences?