As some of you already know we started sailing monohulls at Tacticat. And because its new, or more popular, or whatever, we're having problems with cat sailing.

One of the actions to promote cat sailing that we thought was the possibility to host mixed races: cats and monohulls at the start line.

We thought it was possible because we have complete control and knowledge of the boat speed and performance: so we might have a 'perfect' handicap or still better we might adjust the dynamical parameters of the boat types to make them 'equal' around the course.

Wrong <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> wrong <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

The two boat types having different pointin ability, inertia and tack/gybe performance MAKES IMPOSSIBLE to give a handicap to make the competition really fair.
At the end it all depends of water/wind conditions, variability, etc.
Just a token: if wind is shifty, oscillatory, some periods (how fast is oscillates) would clearly benefit monohulls and others will clearly benefit cats.

So, and that is of course rethorical, how can ANY handicap system be fair in real world?

(Opening another thread to discuss obvious OD vs formula vs handycap was not my intention <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />)

aestela
Tacticat Admin.

We have up trying to handicap Cats vs 1/2 boats - it just does not really work - different "take off points" different performance "shapes". It's well known that for most of the mixed events in the UK, Windy - cats win, moderate 49er's / Musto Skiffs win, lighter and the older mono's get a look in.

It just does not really work.

In the US don't they have three seperate ratings for each Class dependant on Wind strengths. Thus, given what you've just said Scooby about 49ers etc you could equalise them out a bit better? (Only a suggestion not a debate)

TikiPete? Is that you?

There will never be a perfect handicapping system. I saw the light about 3 years ago. If there is more wind at the end of a race (even slightly) it benefits the slower boats dramatically. The opposite is true as well. Anytime you have a speed differential amongst boats, a handicap system will give you an approximation whether or not it's cats vs. cats or monos vs. monos. (spinnaker cats vs. non-spinnaker cats too).

That being said, handicap systems are beneficial and useful. Some people would rather race under them and while they are imperfect, some view the unpredictability as an opportunity. It gives others an opportunity to race whatever boat they have. I support handicap systems - but I choose to not race under them whenever possible.

(spent some time on this <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) and it still does not work !

Where ever you put the "wind breaks" in, classes still get hit/make a profit and then they will moan even more !

A handicaping system doesn't work... even in cyberspace... get the [censored] out of here!

Ah one design... its huge.

FORMULA 18 Harken 1 design series Florida.
Olli Jason 15 4 7 4 4 26 4
David Ingram 10 3 2 2 2 15 4
Brian Karr 4 2 4 10 3
Jennifer Lindsey 1 3 3 7 3

You loose the formating but only 4 boats made three or more events in the year.

Not much better in the Carolina's either
Nothing .. Nada... no F18's in the mid Atlantic

So.. Hope springs eternal that the world will see the light and buy the boat... AND go racing. But until then.. You might actually want to sail against somebody on HANDCIAP

I figure every one can count to 4 when they cross the line to see how they are doing in One design.

Other sailors might say... ah the hell with it.. we will race those F16 and Nacra 20's on handicap.

Not this time! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> But, damn, I shoulda thought of it.

Seriously, can you standardize the course? Thereby reducing a variable?

Been there done that and not going back. Life is too short to sail handicap.

You mean variables like wind, waves and weight? Now that's a course I'd like to see.

Mark
Maybe it's time to update your regatta turnout post and close out the year.

Objectively: Both open handicap regatta's and one design events have done well.
There must then be a place and a need for both.

Subjectively: The Madcatter Kicked butt. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

or should it be kicked Kirk ???

Lil help JW

Guys this is about an online game, not real life scenarios. LOL I know you all knew that though.

No Robi, it's about both. I'm assuming when aestela said 'real world' he was not talking about the 'online game' or did I read that wrong, which I've been known to do from time to time.

You are correct he did mention something about real world. But if you read what he said prior to that sentence he is talking about the online game.

In all honesty I do not know where that real world sentence would fall into.

It is just another one of those internet/forum mysteries of typed and meant issues.

NOOOOOOO!!!! But, if the courses were equal (or known) length with the same bearing from mark to mark, might not the results become more meaningful.

Who in the heck claimed one design racing was huge? Our numbers are down dramatically everywhere in our area this past year in one design and handicap racing.

I do recall saying that I much prefer one design racing as it is a much fairer contest but I never made any claim that it was huge.

My question is.

Since your numbers are down... Have you considered that the push for one design race machines which are sailing in one design races left a lot of your former racers behind? ... (and so now you have a smaller group of racers)

Hey... if they are not part of the "real party on the water" not much reason to attend a regatta is there!

Also... when the fleet leaders make the argument forcefully and repeatedly... that ITS JUST NOT FAIR... do you think that this is another reason to say "why bother to go racing ... Hell, IF I do well.... they will just mutter that I was on a Frankenboat (a Ding term if not mistaken) ... or well [censored]... that Hobie 14 has a killer rating."

You also make the point that one design... "its a much fairer contest"
I will only agree with you on the concept of "Fairer" IF your team and my team weigh in about the same! Otherwise, the concept of fair is really quite limited to a small population of sailors in most of these classes you want to talk about.

But... I guess you see this for yourself with the declining numbers...

So what's the plan.. more of the same... True belief that One design fair racing is what will revive your local regattas and interest in cat racing. When do you say the hell with the local stuff ... I will drive 1000 miles for a 5 to 10 boat one design regatta?

I see NO EVIDENCE that the current formulation of "Fair One Design Racing" is the key to reversing the decline of the sport. Division 11, one of the strongest Hobie Divisions left suffered another decline in their one design turnouts for 06 (H16, 17 and 18... the classic one design cats).

There is nothing wrong about one design racing (using ANY rule set you want)... There IS something wrong when its not sustainable in your area and you continually truncate the fleet in the quest for one design (play theme from Man of La Mancha).

Tell me where I am off base here?

Hell the non US sailors don't understand the boat bashing zero some game we play (see recent thread)... They seem to run races where everyone is racing each other on handicap and they also score fleets within the overall.

Mark

Boy you guys are trying hard to pick a fight.

Look, we didn't tell anybody they couldn't sail in the handicap fleet and most, if not all of us, still go racing under handicap if there's not a enough boats for a "class". My point is both our one design and handicap fleet racing showed a reduction this past year so to go "ninny ninny boo boo" because two one-design series saw a decline in the past year and attempt to point the finger at one design fleets is just silly.

We've been running races the same way they've been run here for decades except that this year our scheduling, by globing several regattas one after the other to try and stay in traditionally windy periods of the year, wasn't all that well thought out (and we probably have too many events). I can point out other glaring external factors why things were on the decline but I'm not even going to bother. Every catamaran sailor is welcome and has always been welcome at our regional regattas. We'll always make fleets and/or accommodations to score them fairly and help them in any way possible regardless of whether or not they are sailing on a random boat or a strong one-design boat.

Weren't we talking about the weaknesses in handicap systems anyway?

Stop quibbling! On with the fight! Did you know there is nothing on tv tonight?