Hey, logged on to the computer for the first time in a while. After reading the entire thread, Melissa and I are excited by the potential of this project. I don’t blame Wouter for being pissed off by all the nay saying. Wouter, we have no clue what you have done and what is not done. If we don’t have the details, we can not help, so do not ask us to.

I vote for Wouter to continue the project because he is the most capable person to get the job done right.

The only way I see this thing failing is if the box rule is poor. We need the initial design to prove the rule allows for high performance and a well balanced boat. Once the box rule is in effect, you can design your own boat or use Wouter and Phil’s design.

Matt

Hey, not bad...if we take Flatlander18's original topic starter in the general forum related to youth sailing as the inception point, then it only took 10 days for this whole small/cheap/F12 community boat development thing to begin, grow, diverge, and finally implode.

Good thing it's a Friday...now everybody go have a beer.

Wouter I admire your tenacity and “can do spirit”… working towards a goal with laser focus. I agree with you that to get a job done there has to be direct, concise communication of ideas.

What I have observed is that often a proposal is made… or questioned… and the one making the comment is personally attacked. I firmly believe there are some that “bait you in” just trying to get a vicious response, but most are not…they just have ideas or questions they would like to have considered… Things that they may have personally experienced that can help keep a project on track or avoid unnecessary set backs. Just as you bring to the table a degree of experience and expertise, so do they. Just like you… they want to be heard and seriously considered.

We all have different life experiences, that when combined, can give us the ability to do things as a group that could never be accomplished on our own. Think about it…collectively the sailors on this forum might represent hundreds of years of on the water experience… what a terrible asset to waste.

The project manager, along with his team, must distill this knowledge into a workable reality, there is not a lot of time for hand holding and touchy feely pleasantries…but one can be brief and to the point as to maximize effectiveness, without personal insults. Anytime the discussion moves towards a personal attack it moves away from the goal that both parties claim they are there to accomplish.

As a leader, you have to stay above the fray, you can’t afford to get in a mud wrestling match with everyone that tries to antagonize you…work on developing the ability to discern the difference between those that are genuinely trying to make a contribution, from those that are just stirring the pot. Ignore the pot stirrers and they will eventually loose interest and go away, keep engaging them and they will continue to haunt you.

As to writing off questions that have already been addressed…remember that there is rarely one perfect solution for a problem…the person that is “blown off” might just have a solution that comes form an entirely different field that you have no knowledge of.

I sincerely offer these suggestions for your consideration.

Best Regards,
Bob

Don't forget guys and girls Wouters natural language is in Dutch and not English, some of the gripes you Americans have ( and it is largely from those over the pond ) is just largely because of the literal language translation Wouter is using. For those of us used to people translating to English, this sort of thing is pretty normal.

And also remember written word, via internet or email, is the poorest form of modern communication. It allows no voice inflection, ever notice how you can tell the person on the other end of the telephone is smiling? It allows no facial expression, body posture, or gestures to help you translate the message.

Without all this physical stimuli, it allows your mind to wander, to input your perception of things such as tone of voice, read between the lines and derive and create percepted meanings.

Emoticons give some help in this regard, but we forget to use them and even with them a quickly typed message can never equal telephone or eye to eye conversation. Don't we think something like ten times faster than we can speak?

Are you guys trying to make excuses for Wouter or insult him? It certainly is not clear from the last two posts, which apparently were made by English-speaking people. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The dummy spitting is more interesting then the F12, Wouter has been annoying most of the forum users for years, just ignore him.
Remember Samevans?

Darryn

Sam Evans was one person, and yes Wouter has probably annoyed everyone on the forum at some time. BUT, Wouter has spent many hours helping regular members and newcomers to the forum over the years.

See the heading of this thread: F12 design and development

Does anyone remember the Dart 12 ? Laser brought it out 15? or more years ago. They demonstrated it at Dart 18 events and toured the UK with it trying to encourage junior sailors. I'm not sure why it didn't work - it may have been too expensive. I wondered if 12 ft was long enough, if it had enough buoyancy, but I think that the modern design of John Alani's and Wouter's hull has a lot more buoyancy than the old slim hulls of the Dart 12. My kids, at 29 and 27, are way past this cat, but I would love to see a Formula that sailors (fathers) around the world could build to (or buy) and so, start their kids Cat Sailing.
If we all stay cool, it can be done.

Dermot,
I think the answer is to come up with a super simple design to build. This would also be super cheap to build.
The quicker and easier and cheaper it can be built the more likely it will work to bring people/children into the sport.

I think quick, easy and cheap much more important than performance for the first timers.

Now if they are silly enough to come back to build another they will have some building confidence and sailing experience and hopefully both were pleasant on the first attempt and will want something much more refined.

Now most of us have had pleanty of experience with numerous boat designs and have developed a more refined taste that would not be satisfied with what a first timer would want.

To make something like this happen I think you need to get people together to do this as a social activity so they can be built in groups/numbers. Sailing clubs may be a fertile ground/venue. The clubs could run some adds and manage the building projects.
You could pitch it "dads and mums come and learn some boat building and provide a thrill machine for your young children".

Regards,
Phill

[/quote]
Sam Evans was one person, and yes Wouter has probably annoyed everyone on the forum at some time. BUT, Wouter has spent many hours helping regular members and newcomers to the forum over the years.

[/quote]

The frequency of Wouters posts and repetitive nature of the content is more advertising for F16 then facts about Catsailing that can help newcomers to our sport.
I mentioned samevans as he posted the same stuff about wouter years ago that users are complaining about now.

Enjoy your little boat guys, is anyone building yet?

Darryn

Dermot,

Can je dig up some info or pics on the Dart 12 ?

Would love to know more about it.

Especially the basic specs and anything that would give a brief history of the class or comment on how this boat sailed.


Wouter

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Darn, I was hoping to keep that a secret <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'll give you guys a hint. With a boat this small, the right specs are absolutely critical.

Wouter

I had a look online yesterday and this is all I could find: http://www.multihullsmag.com/boats/boatlists/cats_up_to_20_feet.htm
I will look through some old files tomorrow and see what I can find. I think that it looked like a small Dart 18 and 15.

Wouter I got your PM. I replied, but your box is full. Anyway, I will check out the Dart 12 and see what I can find.

Phill,
I agree completely. Maybe when the grandchildren come along, you guys will have sorted the design out and I will have time to get building !

Dermot,
I'm taking about something simpler than the shapes Wouter and John have drawn.
A "Super Simple" 12 ft cat could be drawn up with building instructions in a couple of days and a couple of weekends to build plus painting if thought out carefully.
So I suppose you're right, it could be done by the time the grand kids come along.

The best thing would be if a big company with lots of advertising money supported it.That may be a bit further down the track imagine 2000 little cats spread around the globe advertising CATSAILOR or SUBWAY!!!!!
If only I owned a massive international company.
But I might be just dreaming?

Unregistered, please e-mail me: mary at catsailor.com

Phil,

Do you have a shape in mind, if so are you willing to share it with the forum?

Gareth

Phill is definately the man to talk to in the way of hulls and building them.

My hull plan is known, but more interesting is the fact that I spend by far more time designing the other parts. Here there are a few tricky issues that needs to be solved.

I must admit that I wasn't up to designing the whole 12 ft cat in only a couple of days. At least not one that would succeed on the crucial points.

Wouter