Guys,

Some of you must really learn to understand what it actually said and not inteprete things in what you expect is said.




It is not me but actually you who are putting to much emphasis on performance. I only wanted it to perform sufficiently well, You however make it out into meaning that F12 is a racing cat. I never wrote that.





This is soooooo misguided. The F14 by Darryl is so much overpowered and it actually very close to F18 and F16 is real preformance that it will scare the hell out of youngsters. That F14 is actually 25 % faster then the F12 I'm proposing.

How do you explain your opinion that F12 is too much focussed on performance, racing and too much to handle for youths and then turn around and prefer the F14 for the same group of persons ?

I mean, Please excuse me for saying so, but are you truly serious here ?

No personal offense intended.





Well, there is always something wrong with everything, isn't it ?


....


You know what I quit.

I think that I'm truly not the right person to lead this public F12 project.

I'll just continue with my own design in my own pace, everyone who wants to be part of that can e-mail me personally.

For the remainder I wish you all the best of luck and I truly hope you'll succeed in gettting the "true" F12 of the ground.

Wouter

Me too that is why I think a 12ft long F12 will perform sufficiently well for the needs of children and there is no need to have more perfromance, if I wanted more performance I would have gone for an F14. That is the point I was trying to make.

Shame you are quiting

Gareth

Aha! I get it now, if a boat, such as the Catsy, is 10'-2" long it must be an F11. Why is the F16, at 16'-5", not a F17? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter,
You did not explain why you don't think it makes sense to have two divisions of Formula 12, low-performance and high-performance.

You could concentrate on the high-performance aspect, like your F12 (which might become F12X), and somebody else could concentrate on the low-performance boats for the younger kids.

Your talents are much better suited to the high-performance end of the picture.

I should add, too, that it appears there are lots of small boats available in Europe, and in Australia. But there is really nothing available in the United States except for the Bravo, which I definitely don't consider to be a good boat for children.

Why…Why…Why…would you want to design and build a hull design that is inferior if it costs you nothing more in money, time, or weight to have a superior product?

If someone offered you a compact car that outperformed a sub-compact car on every level…got better fuel economy, had a more desirable body design, had more interior room, more carrying capacity all for the exact same price…which would you choose?

If I offered to build you a house that was 3,911 square feet instead of 3,657 square feet for exactly the same price and it didn’t cost anymore in utilities, taxes or insurance to own this bigger home which would you choose?

There is zero logic to the argument of having a poorly performing 12'-0" hull design when you can have a superior one at 12'-10" that costs nothing more, is not any harder to build, will perform better, will allow a greater range of use because of increased weight bearing capacity.

Darryl’s F14 is like a Ferrari in comparison to what we are talking about here… and about three times as expensive as the proposed F12 budget. We are talking about the difference between caviar and canned tuna fish.

I say again…make the hull as performance oriented as possible within the restrictions of building materials, and simple construction methods… achieve all your performance restrictions with the rig…

“You know what I quit.” Wouter just think if you would have said that a few years back…the F16 class as we know it today might not exist…

Regards,
Bob

Because I do see the benefit of two setups, Mary.

Remember the two rigs ? One of 7.00 sq. mtr. and the other of 9.00 sq. mtr. using the same basic platform ?

I just don't see the benefit of having two size of platform, especially if they are only 10 inches different in length which in turn is only done because the name initially was F12.

Forgive me but I tiring of going in circles.

Wouter

Yeah well back then I was young, stupid and inexperienced. Due to the F16 I'm much wiser now and I know exactly the amount of work involved. And the F16 class simply would not have existed without me, the only other indispensable person in that class was Phill Brander. Together we were the core of the class for the first years and if any of us two had buckled then that would have been the end.

I pretty much got that life experience under my belt already, so I don't really need another one of the same type. Maybe that explains why I have a little bit less tolerance with the F12.

Anyway that is passed station now. I'm out.

Wouter

Ain't that the truth Bob !

Even when I was young (teenager) during the 80's I thought the Hobies looked like they were from another century. It was the nacra I liked back then.

Wouter

Wouter,
Why would you quit on your project, which sounds like a great boat that can handle everyone from pre-teens to adults?

But you said yourself that it was not designed with the younger children in mind -- like ages 7-8 to 11-12. That group could not care less what the boat looks like or how fast it is. They just want to go out on the water and have fun.

Your boat appeals to a slightly older, more sophisticated group. Like post-puberty?

This youth situation is very complicated because there are so many variations in the development of children. It's not a matter of one boat fits all in that critical period between 8 and 14.

I don't see any reason for not going forward with your boat design for its targeted group.

For my own young grandchildren, I would like something much slower and more "primitive." A miniature version of a Wharram design would be perfect. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
--------------------
Mary A. Wells
Catamaran Sailor Magazine

Mary
You wrote "I would like something much slower and more "primitive."...that is what you want...but what do your grandchildern want? they have been watching people surf 60 foot waves, jump 35 feet in the air doing loops with motorcross bikes, riding down the side of a mountains on a bycicle, doing 720's on skateboards and all matter of exteme sports, will that mini Wharram design get them excited enough to want to sail? or will they gravitate to something that looks a lot more like the latest and greatest that the adults are sailing?

Regards,
Bob
doing loops

The views that I express reflect the wants of both my daughter and her children. Just my local market research. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Where would kids see catamarans sailing, anyway, to even know what looks fast and exciting? Probably 95 percent of the kids in this country have never even seen a catamaran -- except for maybe a Wave or a Getaway in commercials on TV for a split second. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

"Where would kids see catamarans sailing, anyway, to even know what looks fast and exciting? Probably 95 percent of the kids in this country have never even seen a catamaran -- except for maybe a Wave or a Getaway in commercials on TV for a split second."

All these other sports have been actively courting the youth on TV for years...the catamaran industry is not even on their radar.

You don't need any knowledge about catamarans to tell the difference between a A2 VS wave or the difference between a Blade VS Getaway...besides the obvious difference in appearance...even the name of the rotomolded boats sound like something a grandmother would pick...LOL...no disrespect...LOL

Regards,
Bob

Bob,
I think it is in the eye and mind of the beholder. When I look at a Wharram sailboat, I see character and romance and adventure and pirates and visions of south sea islands.

When I look at a modern A cat, I just see a machine, devoid of personality.

I think young children are more likely to see things the way I do. But I can only speak for the children I know. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I guess the only way to find out is to do a worldwide survey where you give young children pictures of various sailboat styles and ask them which one they like best. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Mary...ask any boy over the age of 4 which he would rather have, a boat called a "Blade" or a boat called a "Getaway" and see which one he picks...even if he doesn't know what either one looks like...LOL

"When (I) look at a modern A cat, (I) just see a machine, devoid of personality.

(I) think young children are more likely to see things the way (I) do. But I can only speak for the children (I) know."

If I didn't know better... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />I would have to say you were trying to live vicariously thru your grandchildren? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />... LOL...

Furthermore, If boats have personalities (which they do) the A2 has to be a "Super Model" in a sea of plan Janes... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> and the rotomold boats are the ugly betties <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />.

Regards,
Bob

Why would I have to live "vicariously" through anyone? I have been sailing all my life, and still am.

If my grandchildren would rather play golf, I couldn't care less. But thank you for thinking that I care what sports my grandchildren pursue.

"Why would I have to live "vicariously" through anyone? I have been sailing all my life, and still am."

Mary...It wasn't meant to be a serious comment... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />I was hoping that you would realize my intent by the use of all the smiles and grins... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Regards,
Bob

I don't trust smiles and grins. They are often used to mask what the person truly means or thinks.

In the case of my grandchildren it is totally untrue, though. They are immersed in all the traditional team sports, and I think that's great.

They live only blocks from Lake Erie, but to get a boat down the stairs to the beach would be difficult unless it was very small and light, so my daughter and the children could carry it.

We ARE talking about basically a "toy" boat for kids to play around on and get them interested in sailing when they go to the beach with an onshore wind.

I still don't see any conflict with Wouter's design for the older and more experienced youth sailors. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I would think his answer would depend upon whether he was thinking about running away from home at the time. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />