I don't know why everybody keeps talking as though there has to be just one boat to fit all. That is impossible, especially when talking about kids and the dramatic changes they go through from ages 7 to 18. (Cripe, look at the huge variety of cats we adults have to choose from.)

Wouter's boat sounds perfect, as I keep saying, for the older kids and for adults. What's wrong with that?

It seems logical that we need at least two boats: a smaller, lower-performance boat for the little kids and Wouter's boat for the older kids.

So what is the problem?

One group should work on Wouter's concept and build a prototype, and another group should work on the 12-foot or 11-foot concept and build a prototype for that.

Until boats are built and some market testing is done, all this is conjecture and theory. None of us REALLY know what kids are going to like, regardless of their age category.

It would probably help if we just forget about the Formula 12 class idea, since the boats within the class are probably never going to be able to race against each other boat for boat anyway, and just concentrate on a couple of very different one-design boats for two different, basic age categories and purposes.

It might turn out that we need an 8-foot boat or a 9-foot boat or a 10-foot boat. So it is probably silly to think about formula at this point. Let's make some boats that float and see what works, as far as the kids are concerned. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> That IS what this is all about, isn't it?

My mistake I meant to use the 2.5mx 1.25m ply in my example, you can build a 12ft boat from 3 sheets of that. But it takes 5 to build your 12'10". 5-2 is 2 sheets by my reckoning. I am sure you could build 12"10'from 4, but thats not your design is it?

The only one who is blind to the argument is you, sure you can build a boat that carries more power or weight if it is bigger , that argument applies to any boat no matter how long. But the whole point of this is that you can build a boat that has enough buoyancy and sail for children at 12ft. There are already enough boats to cater for teenagers its just not needed in my opinion.

I will wait to see Phils design.

Gareth

Straw man argument.

Hell, I can even build a 6 foot box out of a single sheet of ply that will float children about. Stick a handkerchief on a broomstick and call it a sailboat. Why don't we do that ?

Well, unlike some others here I also try to satisfy some other design goals like making a nice link up with larger catamarans and having enough attractiveness to have kids come back and stick with sailing. Or have we all forgotten how several youth program leaders told us how the kids and even instructors used to fight over the FASTER catamarans while the small and save mono's were ignored ?

I'm not looking to make an imitation bravo or catsy. What would be the point, these boats already exist ? (and most likely don't work well enough to compete with the mono competition)

Seems to me some of you guys just want these bravo's and catsy's but then only pay US$ 900 instead of the US$ 2745 charges for the Bravo.

You want to have your cake and eat it too.

Obviously that is not going to happen.

But hey, if you feel that I'm blind and giving you bad advice then so be it ... afterall it is your time and money that will be wasted not mine.


Wouter

Great idea Mary !

The width of the two cat hulls will be so wide that you don't even need beams to secure the two hulls to eachother. You can just lash them together. Another cost saver !

It will be like a heavier optimist (because it has decks) with a wall running through the middle of the hull.

Keep the good idea's flowing everybody !

Wouter

You ask for peoples opinions then you get the hump and say "I quit" when those opinions are contradictory to your own. This project was never going to go anywhere with you at the helm with an attitude like that.

Gareth

Been really busy, so I would like to quickly state my feelings and vote for the direction of the project. I feel that a vmg boat would be best suited for children 13 and up. There are 1000s of slow under performing monos and pretty much anything hobie makes would work. They can be had cheap used. My experience tell me that even the richest parents are not going to spend even 3000$ for a 7-13 year old to have a high performance sailboat. Especially if they can’t sail the boat. I would like my full size friends and crew to be able to use it as well because they are not ready for a full on racing cat yet.

But name me a high performance boat for 13 and up year olds 3000$???

Rick Claims says the Wave is as fast as a H16 with a hooter. Well lets compaire prices. A wave is 4,295 plus a 200 delivery fee. Plus tax comes to 4860. Plus whatever rick charges for a hooter. I would guess he charges 700$, maybe more with all the blocks and pole. So that its 5560. The wave is wider and I have yet to see someone cartop one, or hear of someone doing it. So add 550 for a trailer. 6110. Plus, I am not sure that that F12 needs beach wheels, but the wave does. 6510. or 217%.

It might be a great boat, but it is not comparable. No boat is, that is the point.

Probably won’t get a chance to post for a while. So please keep my vote in mind, as I would like to participate in the class in the future. My 7-13 year old kids will not be getting a new boat though. Assuming they even want to sail, which I am not sure they will.

Thank you, Wouter.

I think the Catyak is 8 or 9 feet, and I am going to try to find one, because then I won't have to build a boat. I know it will carry a large adult, because a friend of ours used to have one, and he was at least 6'5" tall.

The Boy Scouts received achievement patches for sailing in the Catyak Nationals back in 1975.

**** arguments going round and round and round and round and round and round ....

But what really got to me was the fact that the persons peddling these arguments thought that they had something valuable to add to the discussions and demanded to be treated nicely for being busy making the discussion going round and round and round and round and round ...





And I'm sitting first row to see how succesful it will be without me by going round and round and round and round ..... . <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

It will be more confortable moving it about that way. But because of ligtweightness it can use a piece of alu tubing and two plain wheel barrel tires. Total cost 60 euro's. Homebuild in under 60 minutes

Wouter

Mary,

Any object with more then 100 liter volume enclosed in itself will carry an adult. That is not the point. The point is that it also needs to go somewhere under sailpower. And safety requirements alone demand that it does so relatively efficiently. Otherwise the boat won't be able to sail clear of the being trapped at a (rocky with big surf) leeward shore when the wind pipes up.

The slower the boat is made the more difficult it is to make the boat point and the more easily you can get into trouble. Do the math and modelling and find out for yourself.

Maybe we should design a peddle system to go with that F10 or F11 so kids can paddle to safety ?

Wouter

Excellent idea! I've been wondering how mom is going to retrieve them when they get out of range. I was thinking she might have to put a long tether on the boat.

<******** arguments, all the arguments I have heard are valid opinions (inlcuding yours) I think that everyone has had something valuable to add. Whats with the "persons" I am not sure who you have a problem with if its me please say so.


Gareth

Well, I know it wasn't me, then, because I have never demanded to be treated nicely, and certainly did not expect to be. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

**** argument there.


Wouter

But, Wouter, your boat will handle all the weights, so there is no debate about that. I don't know why you would not just proceed with it. It sounds perfect for the target market of 13-18.

The debate is about the younger kids and the little kids and maybe even older kids who are total newbies to sailing and need a slower, less intimidating boat to start out on.

The ONLY objection I had was to calling your design a Formula 12. If you want to call it a Typhoon 12, I wouldn't have any objection at all. SOUNDS more interesting, too.

Then if a Formula Class 12 is formed, it could be decided whether or not to grandfather in the Typhoon 12, just as was done with the Formula 16 class.

And, as I have already said, right now I don't really see much point in having a Formula 12 class at all for racing purposes, because the diversity of boats might be way too great to have any straight-up racing.

To me, it seems like the debate is more like a chicken-and-egg situation -- should we have a Formula 12 class and decide on the parameters and let people design and build within those parameters? Or should we design a boat and then set the parameters of the class based upon that boat?

I think that is what is causing all the "round-and-round" discussion.

Who says that that design hasn't proceeded ?

Wouter

I thought you said you quit.

My head is spinning. Arrrggghhh!!!


Soon the kids will be dizzy too!

Yes I quit this public project for an F12, which is not the same as my personal F12 project.


Wouter

Are you prepared to define what you consider to be sufficient freeboard?

Gareth