In commenting on various post I will switch roles from time to time. Some comment I make as a chairman of the F16 class and others as a private F16 sailor. Yet others again as a proxy for Greg Goodall as he is unable to reply himself with current preparation for the F18 worlds that is on within a week or so.

I will denote my role by naming it between accolades.



>>but I think it's time I throw in another view.

Please.


>>In our case, we have to import from Australia but I'm sure our masts originate in USA.

(Chairman) They do.


>>>If we were to make our own carbon products here in S.E Asia, we could probably get them for the same as or maybe even less than what we pay for the alloy one.

(Chairman) If you want can you send me the cost of carbon masts by private mail. I know the ins and outs of the alu masts so I can compare the two and see how the situation is. If anything the class would like to find a good carbon mast builder to service all F16 builders. That in itself would be a great development to propel the F16 class.



>>To us, carbon is going to make the F-16 Class here more viable. And isn't that what you want - it's certainly what we want.

(chairman) There is no proposal on the table to ban the use of carbon fibre, please take note of that. Only to ban permanently fixed beams and a additional one to ONLY ban carbon from use in beams. In all other applications like masts, boards, hulls etc the F16 class will continue to allow the use of carbon.


>>>CARBON is not the question, it's the entry price. Unfortunately the entry price is controlled by factors/factories and demand. Having this level of debate is great as it shows strong interest in the Class.


(chairman) that is a correct describtion. However the going is the going price no matter it is artificially kept high or not.


>>>My view is that Carbon should be allowed in masts, beams, booms...fishing rods, tennis rackets and toilet roll holders.


(Chairman) I wish to underline that ONLY the use of carbon in beams is proposed to be banned in the second proposal. All other uses of carbon remain allowed.


>>CARBON BEAMS. I can quote you exactly what it costs us to replace an alloy beam/mast from AHPC here in Singapore - but I won't.


Please do it be private mail.


>>>I will say I've done the exercise and to build an equivalent here will be cheaper in CARBON. Any designer will tell you that the material cost of a carbon component is negligible these days. It's the manhours required to put it together.


(chairman) That I know but up till now no beams could be source for under 2000 Aus$ or equivalent in other currencies. I'm very interested in what you guys can do with regards to other costs.


>>>AS FOR GLUED TOGETHER BOATS. If a chap wants a glued-together boat, let him. When he has to ship as deck cargo to a World Championship on the other side of the world - he probably can't afford to and so won't show up anyway. And if he can't show up, he can't win! There's really nothing to stop anyone gluing a boat together now anyway. We used to glue Hobie 16's together 20 years ago - so it's nothing new.


But then again the Hobies were shipped disassembled; glueing is not ONE-DESIGN in H16 class and you would be protested out of any major event and Hobie corp supplies boats to big events.

(chairman) the problem refered to by Greg is not the lone single guy looking to glue in the beam and not being able to come out but the top notch sailor bringing in a boat with glued in beams winning a hole series due to skill and than create a want in the class to have glued-in beams on all boats. We can miss the single guy but not a whole group of them.


>>One of the comments likened the scene to Formula 1 (heaven forbid, as 'real men' race motor cycles). If you followed one Valentino Rossi's performance in the MotoGP, you would observe something very interesting. He developed the Honda to an "unbeatable" level. Now he rides a Yamaha that was lowly ranked - and still wins!!! It comes down to the nut behind the wheel.


But I bed that Honda sales went up as a result of Rossis result even though your example suggest their is no reason to favour the honda over the Yahama. This is of course perception at work. We both know it is the nut behind the wheel buit do many share that view ?


>>And so finally in conclusion I'd add this curve ball from the outfield - the entry price is the problem, not the
material!

(chairman) Indeed; Hence the seperation of the two proposals. Note how proposal 1 does not limit use of any material in any way ?


>>So are we a Formula or an Entry Level? I'm a Formula but cap my own spending and encourage those in our fleet to do the same. I'll soon be launching a wood-epoxy Taipan against all the Kevlars. Then we'll see whether it's really a material race or not.

(Private sailor) I know the answer to that one already as do you.


>>I know the answer anyway but would be as keen as mustard to meet this chap who is going to spend a million dollars on a 16' cat and win every World Championship!


Again, the question is not really about the single rich guy but rather about the perception that brings everybody to want to be a rich guy to have those carbon beams. At least that is Greg reasoning. Afterall these are his proposals and not mine. I'm only defending them in his place as he is unavailable due to F18 worlds and because I'm guiding the discussion as a chairman of the class.

My own views I keep to myself and will express them only in the vote on both proposals.

Having said all this I note how several poster read these proposals as general limits on the use of materials. This is NOT the case. Proposal one does not ban any material and even proposal 2 only proposes to enforce the use of Alu beams; it leaves all other carbon uses (mast boards etc) as they are now.

These proposals are also no first step to more proposals banning the use of carbon. Both because Carbon rudders , baords and daggers both from AHPC and others like McKenzie are cheaper than glass products of Hobie and Nacra already (=no need to ban them) and because carbon masts are extensively used on Stealths already. We all know the Stealth to be the cheapest F16 around. Please note however that even Stealth marine is not planning to use carbon beams on their boats; there is some difference between the use of carbon masts/carbon hulls and carbon beams.



Wouter