Wouldn't a factory-built version of your design cost more than the home-built version, though? Manufacturers usually seem to say that it costs them almost as much to build a small boat as a much larger boat.
It is rather the other way around. My quote of the 3000 USD is geared toward (new) professional production rather then the price that can be had while homebuilding. This 3000 quote includes rudders bought directly from another supplier as well as the sail and fittings. All components being new.
Say, a homebuilder would do EVERYTHING himselfs then the cost price would be significantly lower, especially if you are using second hand rudders of a H14 or something.
I don't know how else to say it. I mean, of course, that small children new to sailing can handle it in light wind conditions, even though it seems like a very big boat for 8-year-olds.
I understand. However this, in turn, goes directly against your earlier argument that an F12'10" would look far too big in comparison to an 8 foot pram. Your wave looks bigger still (because of large volume hulls) but now you use that that is not really a problem for the kids.
I'm a woman -- I don't have to be logical
Well, that is true.
A while ago I took the following words to heart and that has served me quite well.
"It is a womans perogative to change here mind about any given subject at any given time."
But shifting design criteria make for a hell of a difficult design project, I can tell you that.
It is just a question of whether a woman can (or will) put it on and off the car roof by herself. I AM a little skeptical about that.
I had put this down as a design goal. Currently the assembled platform is 40 kg's or less. This would be the two hulls and beam with the trampoline fitted. Rudders and the rig will be taken off of course. I'm trying to get lighter still. Putting this thing on top of the car will require a person lifting about halve of that. My roof rack design will have a tube with two rollers on each end. Cutting a long story short, these rollers will support halve the platform weight when the boat is put on top. In effect the person doing the lifting only has to lift the other halve. 20 kg is a weight that I've seen women lift of the ground without too much trouble. As such I counting on this being sufficiently light to allow a single women to put the F12 on top.
As a direct comparison, the wave platform is over 80 kg heavier, forcing the parent to lift at least double the amount of the F12 when using the same method. I think this qualifies as a big difference.
I think heaving the boat cartoppable is a critical issue of the F12 design. It certainly is a major cost savings component.
Anyway, rotomolding is certainly not a necessity. It's just a factor that people consider when getting a boat for their kids or for sailing schools (whether for kids or adults).
Understood. I looked at rotomoulded but it seems to make the boat very heavy indeed. It will add about 25 kg to the platform making it increasingly hard to put on the roof of your car.
Twinex adds about the same amount of weight to it.
Neither of these methods seem attractive to get at the easy to handle and lightweight F12. I have got another option for professional building this thing, but I would like to keep this to myself at this time. This looks like it can produce the whole boat at 65 kg (or less) and still have a very good abuse resistance. Main advantage is that it does lend itself for easy mass production. Something the ply contruction method isn't really, although I got an idea to make that alot more viable as well.
What I mean is that with the Wave, for instance, myself and my daughter and all four children can go out on the boat at the same time. That probably would not be the case with your design. I'm not sure about yours, but I am visualizing maybe two-three children at a time or one child, or one child and one adult, or adult sailing alone. In other words, the whole family can use it, but not necessarily all at the same time.
The F12 will carry up to 500 kg of crew weight BEFORE sinking but it won't be fun sailing that way. So even a single hull will carry 185 kg (= 1 parent at 80 kg + 3 kids at 35 kg) and not even have the water standing at the decks, but I do not image this happens often at all.
From the time I was involved in youth and family sailing (and I have) I learned that parents (families) do think they are going to use the boat all at the same time but after 1 or 2 times in the beginning they almost never do it again. Often one of the parents and some of the kids loose interest and don't come out anymore. I found sailing to only attract a portion of the people in one family. Often a single parent and a single kid. In my personal case I'm the only one in my larger family who stuck with it.
As such I feel it to be unwise to design the F12 to handle a situation that is very rare, if not non-existant. For the very few families who do this stuff regulary I think the Wave is a setup that we are not going to challenge with the F12. Lets allow the wave to handle that site of the market. There is no need to aim for the exact same target group as that will only impact negatively on both designs.
My version of the F12 will carry a single sailor or two smaller kids very well and will handle a parent with kid reasonably well. It will carry two adults and larger crews but not in a way that can be called apparent wind sailing or performant.
Of course, I can adhere to both lines of thought (I'm a woman, remember ), and I don't see any conflict at all.
Of course a woman you have that right but there is certainly a conflict here. Because if we use your input to formulate design goals then we end up with conflicting design goals. Now, it will be downright impossible to succesfully design a F12 on a set of conflicting design goals. Practically speaking your "female right" pretty much forces the designers to either accept not designing a real life F12 or to ignore your input.
I would like to not have to do either. So is it possible that you self limit your usage of this "right" in order to advance the F12 design ?
Here is kind of what I envision. I already have a Wave, so I see that as kind of the "mothership." I could take the whole family out on the Wave and tow the little boat behind the Wave. And then, once we are away from the dreaded docks and rocks and anchored boats, let the children take turns sailing the little boat by themselves
...
THAT is my interest in this whole discussion. I don't think I have ever deviated from that goal. And that is why I am waiting for Phill's design.
What you are requesting is in fact a custom design to suit your particular situation. I think this is at odds with the larger framework of the F12 project as it stands now. Afterall, the others don't have (wave) motherships and are not planning to have these either. A good portion is looking to have a better craft then the Wave for the intended purposes.
But we've gotten it now really clear what your desires are. While I don't think this to be a good basis to develop the F12 upon I also think it is a piece of cake of designing a custom boat for you Mary. Probably using many concepts from the larger F12, but just scaled down to your preferred size.
I think using the lugger rig for your custom boat to be even more attactive as you can hoist and lower the sail very easily while on the water. And such a sail is alot easier to homebuild as it uses no battens or sleeve. You can stitch up this sail by hand even in a afternoon. Hell, the kids could do it if they are reasonably attentive to their handy work. But despite this the lugger rig is still rather well performant. It is surprisingly good and it will allow a boomless rig at the same time.
More info at :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LuggerMaybe we should just seperate the design for your situation from the F12 project. That does seem like a far better option.
Wouter
